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160.62.4.10
In Reply to: RE: Infinity IRS BETAS posted by Ampzilla on April 08, 2012 at 08:01:27
I would generally agree with regards to dynamics and transparency. Where I would not agree is in terms of tonal neutrality. I heard a pair recently (mine were sold years ago) and again the power etc. was great but tonally they were colored and rather obviously.
I noted it originally when I owned them but you get used to it because, despite the number of drivers they sing with one voice pretty well. However, after time and space away from them and then hearing them again I have to say that the L-EMIM, EMIM and EMITS have a definite sonic signature. It is not the same as a cabinet resonance, which is why you can get used to it and then its like its not there...mostly.
In this respect Apogees are far superior speakers (I also owned Caliper Signatures...great medium sized speaker) but of course more dynamically limted in the bass (except for the "Almighty" Grand, which is STILL the very best speaker I have ever heard or possibly ever made). Apogees also had less "zing" in the highs, which I think is a bit of artifact from the EMIT design (I hear it to some extent on my Genesis speakers but less so). They are equally transparent as the Betas but about the lowest coloration I have heard from a speaker.
The other classic speaker that can still take on the best of today are larger Acoustats. I had the 1+1 (great except for some bass limitations) the Spectra 2200 (truly full-range in a small/medium sized room) and the Spectra 4400 (a true beast with the best planar bass I ever heard...comparable in power to the Beta towers!).
Rather than get a Beta system, I would recommend the following possibilities:
Apogee Duetta Signatures or Divas + 2 Velodyne or Genesis servo subwoofers (must be servo subs to keep up with the Apogees). Cross them over at a low 40-50 Hz.
Acoustat Spectra 2200 or 1+1 (medallion and modded) + 2 Velodyne or Geneiss servo subwoofers (The acoustats are actually the best of the bunch for low level resolution. A little bit more colored than the Apogees but far less so than Beta panels). Better dynamics overall than Apogees IMO. Also crossover at a low 40-50 Hz.
A used Wisdom Audio system. The BG drivers are quite good when used properly
A used Genesis 300 or 350. The earlier 300 has a better bass system I think but the later one has a better planar driver and more tweeters (less distortion). Also, it is everything in only 2 "boxes"
My "ultimate" system was a pair of Spectra 2200s used above 100Hz (would have preferred lower) and a pair of Spectra 4400s as subwoofers. I crossed them over with an Accuphase F-25 active Xover. I drove both sets of panels with KR Audio VA350i amplifiers (8 ohm tap for the 2200s and 4 ohm tap for the 4400s). I used to call it my "Electrostatica Grand". It did pipe organ like no tomorrow and had all the dynamic slam of the Betas. It was effortless at all volume levels...but it was HUGE.
Now, I have two sets of speakers from Genesis. I have the Genesis III and the Genesis VI. The III is totally passive and has bass down into the upper 20s. It has two 8 inch woofers per side and has a full, rich sound. The mids and highs are shockingly transparent and neutral tonally. The bass is a bit on the rich side but with great texture, really great.
The VI is a monster speaker in a little package. It has a similar but not as rich tonal balance to the III and has a much tighter drier bass. It also throws sound around more as its a dipole. The bass system is three 8 inch woofers per side that have their own outboard servo amp (600 watts). It is exceedingly transparent and neutral but perhaps a bit lean balance wise in the lower mids...right where the III is a bit richer.
I would recommend either one of those (or the V as well) as a planar alternative and a true full range beast. Plus, the V and VI are dipoles.
Of course if you have the space and the right electronics (tubes only on the panels, please!) for the Betas and can find them for a good price, I would say give them a go to experience audio history at its finest.
Follow Ups:
Browsing through the above, the closest animals I have owned are Genesis 400s, Apogee Stages, and Soundlab Pristine IIs.
I'm still a big fan of the IRS Beta, like the Genesis V (versus the other mentioned Genesis speakers), and would put the Apogee Scintilla above any iteration of the Duetta or even the Diva.
Oh - I'm only against Genesis subs based on personal experience with a bad A-gon transaction involving a Genesis 900 sub.
I have heard the Scintilla on a number of occasions as I have three different friends who own them. They can sound utterly amazing but you have to search high and low to get an amp that not only can drive them but sounds GOOD doing so. One friend drives his with the Sphinx Project 16 (very rare Class A amp).
A far easier speaker to drive that sounds really good is the Apogee Studio Grand, although the subs kindof suck so my friend tends to listen to them like they are modern versions of Duetta Signatures, which is basically what they are.
I have heard the Diva sound utterly amazing as well...and I have heard it sound not so good.
Hands down the best Apogee though is the Grand. I have two friends with this ultra-rare beast (only about 25 pairs were made) and I can tell you that it is the most utterly natural and powerful sounding speaker ever made. the subs are enormous sealed boxes with two custom made 12 inchers that are shockingly good subs. The panel is a modernized version of the Diva (all ribbons are now metal/plastic, which gives a more consistent sound than the Diva), which is more sensitive and higher impedance so it is relatively easy to drive.
I am not a fan of the upper range drivers on those Infinities.
I think my ears agree with you on those, the Apogees, and the Acoustats.
The Acoustats start with some dynamic compression that can be distracting, but they make a great performance/dollar speaker these days.
If you unload them of deep bass duties the Acoustats won't have an issue with dynamic compression. Or use some of the bigger ones :-).
I have been experimenting with three pair of 2+2's that accidentally found their way into my life.
One pair is run free of deep bass and the other two are soleley woffer panels. It makes for good system integration with the same drivers sharing the frequency loads.
Kind of imposes on the room, however.
You are even sicker than I am. I had the Spectra 2200s, 4400s and 1+1s in the same room (the 1+1 were in the corners doing nothing by this time). I recommend you try some Spectras, they have lower coloration and greater transparency. They also seem to have a higher dynamic range (my 1+1s were always slapping the wires with heavy bass but not the 2200s, which have the same number of panels per channel as 1+1s) and better low level resolution. Not to mention the main reason for their existence, the absence of serious beaming. The spectra technology really made a wide flat panel give a good dispersion at high frequencies. No venitian blind effect.
I am quite happy now with my Genesis speakers. They are very transparent and low in coloration, have amazing bass and are dipole so the soundstage is big.
That seems to be how I have migrated for the speakers I keep around.
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