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After hearing some of the mega buck speakers $20.000 plus out now. The Betas are still one of the best Speakers ever made. Must use tubes for the midrange and tweeters ARC
Edits: 04/08/12Follow Ups:
I would generally agree with regards to dynamics and transparency. Where I would not agree is in terms of tonal neutrality. I heard a pair recently (mine were sold years ago) and again the power etc. was great but tonally they were colored and rather obviously.
I noted it originally when I owned them but you get used to it because, despite the number of drivers they sing with one voice pretty well. However, after time and space away from them and then hearing them again I have to say that the L-EMIM, EMIM and EMITS have a definite sonic signature. It is not the same as a cabinet resonance, which is why you can get used to it and then its like its not there...mostly.
In this respect Apogees are far superior speakers (I also owned Caliper Signatures...great medium sized speaker) but of course more dynamically limted in the bass (except for the "Almighty" Grand, which is STILL the very best speaker I have ever heard or possibly ever made). Apogees also had less "zing" in the highs, which I think is a bit of artifact from the EMIT design (I hear it to some extent on my Genesis speakers but less so). They are equally transparent as the Betas but about the lowest coloration I have heard from a speaker.
The other classic speaker that can still take on the best of today are larger Acoustats. I had the 1+1 (great except for some bass limitations) the Spectra 2200 (truly full-range in a small/medium sized room) and the Spectra 4400 (a true beast with the best planar bass I ever heard...comparable in power to the Beta towers!).
Rather than get a Beta system, I would recommend the following possibilities:
Apogee Duetta Signatures or Divas + 2 Velodyne or Genesis servo subwoofers (must be servo subs to keep up with the Apogees). Cross them over at a low 40-50 Hz.
Acoustat Spectra 2200 or 1+1 (medallion and modded) + 2 Velodyne or Geneiss servo subwoofers (The acoustats are actually the best of the bunch for low level resolution. A little bit more colored than the Apogees but far less so than Beta panels). Better dynamics overall than Apogees IMO. Also crossover at a low 40-50 Hz.
A used Wisdom Audio system. The BG drivers are quite good when used properly
A used Genesis 300 or 350. The earlier 300 has a better bass system I think but the later one has a better planar driver and more tweeters (less distortion). Also, it is everything in only 2 "boxes"
My "ultimate" system was a pair of Spectra 2200s used above 100Hz (would have preferred lower) and a pair of Spectra 4400s as subwoofers. I crossed them over with an Accuphase F-25 active Xover. I drove both sets of panels with KR Audio VA350i amplifiers (8 ohm tap for the 2200s and 4 ohm tap for the 4400s). I used to call it my "Electrostatica Grand". It did pipe organ like no tomorrow and had all the dynamic slam of the Betas. It was effortless at all volume levels...but it was HUGE.
Now, I have two sets of speakers from Genesis. I have the Genesis III and the Genesis VI. The III is totally passive and has bass down into the upper 20s. It has two 8 inch woofers per side and has a full, rich sound. The mids and highs are shockingly transparent and neutral tonally. The bass is a bit on the rich side but with great texture, really great.
The VI is a monster speaker in a little package. It has a similar but not as rich tonal balance to the III and has a much tighter drier bass. It also throws sound around more as its a dipole. The bass system is three 8 inch woofers per side that have their own outboard servo amp (600 watts). It is exceedingly transparent and neutral but perhaps a bit lean balance wise in the lower mids...right where the III is a bit richer.
I would recommend either one of those (or the V as well) as a planar alternative and a true full range beast. Plus, the V and VI are dipoles.
Of course if you have the space and the right electronics (tubes only on the panels, please!) for the Betas and can find them for a good price, I would say give them a go to experience audio history at its finest.
Browsing through the above, the closest animals I have owned are Genesis 400s, Apogee Stages, and Soundlab Pristine IIs.
I'm still a big fan of the IRS Beta, like the Genesis V (versus the other mentioned Genesis speakers), and would put the Apogee Scintilla above any iteration of the Duetta or even the Diva.
Oh - I'm only against Genesis subs based on personal experience with a bad A-gon transaction involving a Genesis 900 sub.
I have heard the Scintilla on a number of occasions as I have three different friends who own them. They can sound utterly amazing but you have to search high and low to get an amp that not only can drive them but sounds GOOD doing so. One friend drives his with the Sphinx Project 16 (very rare Class A amp).
A far easier speaker to drive that sounds really good is the Apogee Studio Grand, although the subs kindof suck so my friend tends to listen to them like they are modern versions of Duetta Signatures, which is basically what they are.
I have heard the Diva sound utterly amazing as well...and I have heard it sound not so good.
Hands down the best Apogee though is the Grand. I have two friends with this ultra-rare beast (only about 25 pairs were made) and I can tell you that it is the most utterly natural and powerful sounding speaker ever made. the subs are enormous sealed boxes with two custom made 12 inchers that are shockingly good subs. The panel is a modernized version of the Diva (all ribbons are now metal/plastic, which gives a more consistent sound than the Diva), which is more sensitive and higher impedance so it is relatively easy to drive.
I am not a fan of the upper range drivers on those Infinities.
I think my ears agree with you on those, the Apogees, and the Acoustats.
The Acoustats start with some dynamic compression that can be distracting, but they make a great performance/dollar speaker these days.
If you unload them of deep bass duties the Acoustats won't have an issue with dynamic compression. Or use some of the bigger ones :-).
I have been experimenting with three pair of 2+2's that accidentally found their way into my life.
One pair is run free of deep bass and the other two are soleley woffer panels. It makes for good system integration with the same drivers sharing the frequency loads.
Kind of imposes on the room, however.
You are even sicker than I am. I had the Spectra 2200s, 4400s and 1+1s in the same room (the 1+1 were in the corners doing nothing by this time). I recommend you try some Spectras, they have lower coloration and greater transparency. They also seem to have a higher dynamic range (my 1+1s were always slapping the wires with heavy bass but not the 2200s, which have the same number of panels per channel as 1+1s) and better low level resolution. Not to mention the main reason for their existence, the absence of serious beaming. The spectra technology really made a wide flat panel give a good dispersion at high frequencies. No venitian blind effect.
I am quite happy now with my Genesis speakers. They are very transparent and low in coloration, have amazing bass and are dipole so the soundstage is big.
That seems to be how I have migrated for the speakers I keep around.
Big standouts from that timeframe that can still completely hold their own (given the right room and system matching) are:
Infinity IRS Beta
Apogee Diva, Scintilla, or (for some folks, just not my cuppa) Duetta Sig
B&W 800/801/802 Matrix
Duntech and/or Dunlavy larger models
Of course, this is just my opinion, but if I had the proper space and equipment, I would put my money where my mouth is.
My good friend still has a set of Betas in a surround system with
high current amps and a Meridian processor.
He has the Betas all the way around in the surround system
There are not many loudspeakers I have ever heard that sound as good
as they do.
The comment on old technology is a bunch of poop. They sound amazing!
I guarantee anyone who has no experience with them would leave the room
with their jaws dropped after hearing that system with any material
they choose to listen to.
No one called the Betas old technology. The whole point is, Ampzilla thinks that his Betas, after 25 years, still ranks high on the food chain of audio! Nothing has happened in the last 25 years, technology wise, that would put the Betas at a disadvantage. Today's speaker's may have more x-max, less impedence swings, baffle compensation networks on the crossover but no large, ground breaking advancements that would cause you to walk pass a Demo at an "Audiophile Show".
As far as xmax goes the Betas have 8-12 inch bass loudspeakers with servo
feedback and some of the best low end sub bass you will ever hear
out of a home audio system.
I do mean Accurate bass!
They will make stuff vibrate off shelves in your home.
about the bass when I first heard the IRS in 1980. The Bass was everything you said it was.
But it sounded like it belonged to a different speaker. Blending with the the EMIMs was not exactly "seamless".
It is simply amazing how good some sub $1000 speakers sound today when compared to speakers in their price range 20 to 40 years ago if you take inflation into account.
Beatnik's stuff http://web.me.com/jnr1/Site/Beatniks_Pictures.html
what do you think they would cost today, much less what it would cost to drive them these days. I can imagine how great they could sound with the big VTL for example, but in today's money I think we are talking big bucks. Buy the way have you listened to the NOLAs? I think they take this kind of sound to a whole new level, but what do I know I'm just a guy wo loves Lowthers with 8 watt amps.
Beatnik's stuff http://web.me.com/jnr1/Site/Beatniks_Pictures.html
This is just my opinion. I don't believe that we have came that far in speaker technology in the past 15 to 20 years. The IRS and IRS Beta's were made back in 1980's. The Wilson Wamm, early 80's, the Sound Lab A- series electrostats, early 80's, the Quad Electrostat's early 60's! We have made advances in solid state / tube power amplifiers, DAC's, turntables, cartridges, power conditioners, cables, recording, ect....
Except for the MBL Radialstrahler speakers, nothing really stands out as being much better. The MBL's are in a whole different league from the rest of the pack but if you set up a IRS system at one of the "Hi Fi / Axpona Shows", I think it would do very well.
Agreed,,, if made today the Betas I expect would have to be priced at least $40-50K. Also agree that there isn't much out there now to equal, much surpass their, sonic quality(s).
Edits: 04/10/12
I was making was about price. My four favorite speakers in no particular order are the big Teresonics with the Lowther Drivers, the Quad 57s, the Shindo Latours, and the NOLA Baby Grands. Three of the four could have all basically been made in the fifties.
My point was I think the IRS Betas would cost as much as most super speakers if built today.
Beatnik's stuff http://web.me.com/jnr1/Site/Beatniks_Pictures.html
I heard these Nola Baby Grand Ref Series II At Lyric HI FI New York it did not have the low end the Betas Have ( BELOW 30Hz)
Using the inflation calulator:
Infinity IRS Beta system was $11,950 in (1987) which would be $23,948.70 today (2012).
The Nola Baby Grand Reference ii list at $55k which would be $27,500 back in (1987). The original IRS and IRS series II's were $25k and $30k which would be right on par with the Nola Baby Grand Reference ii. The question is, would the Nola Baby Grand Ref ii out perform the Infinity IRS system?FYI: 1980- $1000 = $2762 in 2012
1990- $1000 = $1741 in 2012
Edits: 04/09/12
It's really a game breaker if a speaker can't rock wit as little as 8 amps. I also don't think you can just use an inflation index. It seems high end audio gear is just much more expensive these days.
Beatnik's stuff http://web.me.com/jnr1/Site/Beatniks_Pictures.html
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