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Hi, I'm new here on the forum and also relatively new to the hifi scene. I've bought myself a second hand system (speakers are new) but find the sound lacking in detail. I use Monitor Audio RX2 speakers, and while they are very enjoyable to listen to, I get a cleaner and more detailed sound image when I plug in my headphones.
I wonder what causes this difference? Can anyone make a suggestion on how to enhance the sound produced by the RX2's?
My setup is as follows: Music Hall a.25 amp and cd.25 cd-player. The speakers are connected with 4mm thick copper wire.
Bart
Follow Ups:
The text will walk you through methods of improving your system, listening room, etc. An excellent reference for setting up your system.
Problem solved!
Yesterday I went back to the shop were I got my speakers. They previously said that a better power cable was maybe a solution. So now they lent me the wirewold stratus. I hooked it up to my amp and the change is really fenomenal. The sound has become very clear, even analytical. I can hear much more detail and the bass has become tight and powerfull.
My previous power cables came with the second hand amp/cd-player and they're clearly not suited for this setup. Although they were custom made for the previous owner...Well I'm happy to have found this weak link and think that I can now put in to practice all the tips you've given me about room placement and vibration control (since now I CAN hear those details :))
It's clear to me now that the RX2 speakers are capable of producing a detailed sound and that they're not the weak link in my system.
Bart
Edits: 11/27/10
Please follow up on the speaker placement, vibrations controls, and room treatments before you go down the path of cleaning up your AC.
Your result with the power cord suggests opportunities for further improvement, but the setup basics have to be right so you don't end up wasting time and money.
You may also find further resolving and detail improvements via the following:1) Listen in the NearField (sit within 6 feet of your speakers)
2) Converge (aim) the speakers at your listening position
3) Raise or lower the speakers so that your ears are "on axis" with the tweeters
4) Listen with the grills OFF
Edits: 11/27/10
Another potential contributor to loss of detail is the loudspeaker crossover network. The more complex networks introduce time and phase anomalies and other, unintended effects. My experience is that well-designed, simple crossover networks, made with quality components, can reward a quest for clarity.
The listening room/environment has a tremendous impace your experience. In headphones the environment is more known and engineered by the transducer designer. Speaker have to operate in a wide range of very uncontrolled enviroments. Speakers are a much greater engineering challenge.
I suggest that you spend some time evaluating you listening environment and speaker mounting/vibration controls. These are usually very cheap and fruitful investments.
Yes, the room acoustics have everything to do with how your speakers will sound. This is not a consideration with headphones.
How is your system / speakers / room set up?
If the room acoustics, speaker placement, and vibration controls are not close to optimum, nothing else will give consistent results.
is capable of delivering musically, room acoustics, resonance control, synergistic cabling, and power conditioning, must be properly addressed. HiFi+ just completed a series of articles on this and concluded those that dismiss these things do so at the peril of never really hearing what their audio systems can sound like. In the recent issue the editor (Alan Sircom) states proper room acoustics can turn a really good audio system into a great audio system. My own experiences confirm the benefits of implementing what the HiFI+ system foundation articles describe.
Len
But do you really think that speaker placement and vibration control can change the amount of detail you hear?
For example the notes from a piano sound more "woolly" through the speakers. Another example is this: I use the intro of a complex rock song that has a lot of noise and feedback to compare the two listening methods. When using the headphones I can clearly hear a violin that chimes in, that is something that's harder to discern with the spekaers.
Vibration and room setup certainly do affect the kinds of details you mentioned, in my experience. You have to get these as good as possible before you can proceed with hope of success. The worst thing to do is ignore them and start tinkering with other tweaks. The results will be inconsistent and frustrating.
Make sure the speakers themselves are solidly supported and cannot rock or chatter. Any stands or racks used to support speakers and equipment should not introduce their own tonal responses. Simply rap them with your knuckle and listening for tones in the response. It may be necessary to get creative about filling hollow tubes with kitty litter or sand to keep them from ringing. I had to do this with my Lovan rack frames. Shelves are another problem area. I was unsuccessful at damping the Lovan shelves and simply replaced them with aluminum extrusion struts which I damped with automotive damping material.
Your cables and power cords should not touch the racks or floor. Simple spacers or lifters made of stiff paper work well and cost a few dollars to make. Cables should be supported like equipment, as their vibration is connected directly into the equipment.
Everyone's listening room is different so you will have to experiment to find whether there are any problem areas in yours. Imagine the walls, ceiling, and floor of your room covered with mirrors. The places where you would see the reflections of your speakers in these mirrors are the first reflection points. If these are hard, flat surfaces, then you have confusing sound waves arriving in competition with the direct waves from your speakers. It is as if the imaginary reflected speakers were sending waves to your listening position, and these arrive later in time because they are farther away. These can really degrade the resolution of your speakers.
Treatments include carpets, curtains, or soft fabric wall hangings to break up the coherence of the reflected virtual sources. Natural wool is a better surface than artificial fibers for surface treatments in a listening room.
Speakers and speaker cables can pick up RF noise, which does affect audio tonal purity and detail. Does your amp operate your speakers and your headphones? Try disconnecting the speaker cables at the amp and see if you hear better sound and more detail with the headphones. If so, you have RF noise problems.
Once you have your setup as good as you can get it, you can compare your speaker presentation to your headphones. Speakers can have their own problems with internal resonances and cabinet diffraction, so your speakers may not deliver as much apparent detail as your headphones. At least then you will be able to make informed decisions.
Room reflections can really hinder your perception of the types of detail that you describe.
It could. Have you tried toeing in the speakers at all? Are the tweeters at ear level when you're listening? This can have a significant impact on picking-up details.
After 30 years of being an audiophile I've turned in to a headphone guy. The detail you get from a good headphone setup is quite addictive.
I've just made the jump to Stax SR-507's. They are quite wonderful.
"Lock up when you're done and don't touch the piano."
-Greg House
Thanks for the answers so far.
I'm hoping that I could fine tune the sound with better power supply or power cables. Hopefully my local hifi shop will let me test some.
Changing the speakers is maybe the most logical suggestion. But one that I like to avoid :D (I just bought these monitor audio's ...).
On the other hand, if you can borrow or buy (with money back, or used and then resell) different speaker cables, that will hopefully bring your speakers details a little closer to headphones.
There are perennial modestly priced favorites like Anticables, Signal (silver), Clear Day and so on.
The headphones I am using to compare the sound are Audio Technica's ATH-M50's. They're good, but also very analytical. The RX2 are more exciting to listen to.
I'll try out the tips posted here (easiest ones first of course ;)) and post my experiences here.
People have kind of beat around the bush on this question so far, but, keep in mind that the one advantage headphones have over speakers: there are no room acoustics issues to consider.
Any speaker you use will always have room reflections and resonances included in the sound that arrives at your ears.
Room issues vary widely from user to user, which is one reason (out of many) why there can be so many differing opinions as to which speaker is "best". Rooms acoustics can be treated in a variety of ways that may help your goal, but just remember it is a complex issue.
And, also keep in mind that headphones and speakers are simply different experiences and one will never exactly duplicate the other. I use headphones for certain tasks, but ultimately find them a less natural experience than speakers.
You got that right. I have two dedicated systems - one for headphones and one for loudspeakers. This is the best way to get at the truth in recordings. Loudspeakers tell us one part of the story, while headphones tell us that part of the story that loudspeakers have some trouble telling. Headphones and speakers TOGETHER give us the clues we need to decipher recordings. When people say that they want to hear "live" sound from their systems, I say that no single system can give it to them. Headphone systems and loudspeaker systems each hold one part of truth.
I agree with you about break-in, and wouldn't expect detail enhancement because of it - smoother or fuller sound would be more likely result.
Playing with cables could give you some improvement, but considering the cost of components, it doesn't make sense to spring for really expensive ones. I would still try that first.
More resolving (and most likely much more expensive) speakers will give you more details, but that wasn't your question.
I owned RX1's, they are very good speakers, and very detailed.
"Lock up when you're done and don't touch the piano."
-Greg House
improving your speakers as the first step (some research and buying used can lead to significant upgrades at a reasonable cost - don't forget to look carefully at Magnepan MMGs - $600 new, $400 used generally) but one other thing to add is that I've found upgrading the power into the upstream components can also lead to more sound detail. When I say upgrading the power, it can range from acquiring a more powerful amp or better power cables to getting a bigger and better outboard power supply.
For example, I recently upgraded the power supply of my outboard tube DAC. As a high-end newbie, my expectation was that the DAC would gain more "slam" & dynamic power. I was surprised and pleased to find that the biggest effect of the better power supply was actually more detail. My conclusion is that the DAC was losing signal due to a lack of power. I would expect that the same occurs repeatedly across the audio chain. Best of luck.
How long have you had the speakers? Are they broken in? Most speakers need a good 200 hours of use to sound their best.
That said, its not unheard of for headphone to give more detail, since they are sitting directly on your ears.
Jack
The speakers were new, they've now been playing for about 40 hours.
I didn't think that the "breaking in" of speakers could give more detail to the sound, I expect them to change more in the range of warmth and dynamics.
I think, the answer is in your post already, namely the new/other speakers. I speak from my own experience - when I replaced speakers with better (also more expensive) ones I got "enhancing detail (resolution) of sound".
I will add a vote for more analytical speakers. I use JM Focal Electra 936s with the inverted Al alloy tweeter that is used by Wilson and others. With the Music Hall such a speaker system will probably go overboard in the analytical direction.
I found the best synergy with all the detail, air and imagery intact but without the metal edginess by using tube power amps. Modern Tube power amps with good power for fullness and dynamics BTW not the slower somewhat rolled off and darker vintage amps ( which I like and collect anyway). I added a big tone maker for added richness by using a 6SN7 based preamp with old stock tubes. This is my recipe for getting musical Nirvana.
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