|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
208.108.81.36
I'm ready to upgrade my el-cheapo speaker cables and was considering bi-wiring my Imagine T's.My system is tubes but is pretty analytical.Can anyone comment? Thanks
Follow Ups:
Before spending ridiculous amounts of money on cables which will gain you next to nothing in changinging the sound, I would suggest playing with speaker location and room acoustic treatments. Those two would gain you so much more than cables. Swapping cables is placebo. Speaker placement and room acoustics are the real mckoy.The one drawback of PSB speakers... They don't colour the sound and they are very revealing to whats attached to them. Some of the higher priced audio junk out there wish they could obtain the flat frequency response curves of PSB.
Edits: 11/16/10
No I haven't tried with PSB but I have tried it and you should to .
And finding it made a positive difference when I didn't think it would. Don't know why, don't know if it was real but an audiophile friend of mine listened and heard the difference as well. Go figure. Why not try? Cheap to do with your current cables and might as well before you buy expensive ones and wonder if you need to double your investment. So I would do it now not later if you think it is worth it at all.
For what it's worth, I bi-wired my fairly new PSB Two floorstanders and heard nothing special. Over the years, I've bi-wired several well-reviewed speakers when tweekdom set in on a Saturday night. Never heard a difference on any of those adventures!
On the other hand, I took back the NAD C372 integrated I was using on the PSB Two and moved up to the newer C375BEE. I don't think I have ever heard such a profound difference. I'd venture to say it wil be a great deal more fun now when I'm bored to bi-wire using that amp. I could use lamp cord and it will probably sound good!
I have Imagine T55's in my home theater system. I hooked them up to my main system, which is bi-wired, then compared them in the same system with single wiring. I did not really notice a difference, but I only listened for less than an hour. There is not much difference when I do the same thing with my main speakers, but I have the wire and it is fun, so I do it.
that is being asked by the poster.Tube amp,good cables,PSB Imagine T speaker.Is it better to biwire? Kal had reviewed this speaker,he should be able to give a specific answer.
Bill
My answer is a generalization as I have yet to realize any enhancement due to bi-wiring any time I have tried it.
OTOH, I did not try bi-wiring (or tube amps) with the T6s, so I cannot rule out the possibility that there might be an exception in this case.
But I always use "good cables." ;-)
With "specific" part, I mean. That "Pointless (N/T)" remark actually says nothing about whether it makes sense to biwire in general, or PSB Imagine T specifically. However, it does say something about the size of the grain of salt, that one should take Kal's reviews with.
adjustment that can be made to a system, but it can be an economical means of improving the performance. Certainly you should seek to remove the stock jumpers, as even replacing them with a higher quality jumper wire can have a beneficial influence. As an example, see my article about replacing jumpers in integrated amps:
http://www.dagogo.com/View-Article.asp?hArticle=261
The principle in discussion of single wiring and utilization of jumpers is similar to that in discussion of upgraded jumpers for integrated amps. Failure to pay attention to such details is one reason why many audiophiles never quite find that elusive satisfactory sound. I find cables to be the most overlooked and despised element in audio system building.
I have tested single wiring vs. bi-wiring on virtually every speaker with the capacity I have ever owned and used/reviewed. I have not found any speaker to date which did not yield superior performance when bi-wired versus single wired. One may have to find the correct cables to obtain the optimum performance from said speaker, but I have never preferred to opt out of bi-wiring. The influence is so profound on higher end rigs that I automatically request shotgun cabling or multiple sets of speaker cables so as to be able to bi-wire.
As a rig improves in quality one can more easily hear the distinction in sound quality from bi-wiring. Some claim that the coherence of the speaker is harmed through bi-wiring, but I do not believe this has been demonstrated. If someone has tests which prove this, I would like to see them. I am open to being informed on that point. It is my experience that a speaker which is bi-wired has superior resolution, dynamics and involves the listener more than through single wiring.
Currently I am working with a high end speaker system which accepts tri-wiring. I wouldn't dream of diminishing the potential of such a speaker by passing the signal through two sets of posts on the way to the drivers. I'm not out to make the easiest system to work with, I'm out to obtain the best possible sound - or put in other words, to achieve the most pleasurable experience of listening to my music.
Others may disagree, but I am not interested in arguing about this topic.
Just connect the single cable to the center pair of posts (mid filter).
while one may connect via the Midrange posts, that does not ensure that the owner will conclude it is the best sound. While technically it may be more direct, the resultant sound might be preferred via attachment to the bass posts, or possibly even the treble posts.
Don't laugh at that suggestion. Typically when I have used single speaker cables and jumpers the drivers receiving the direct signal perform better than those being jumped. When the cable is switched, the improvement is on the other drivers.
It's not a difficult conclusion, then, to make up one's mind that there is no need for diminished performance via using only one cable. With bi or tri-wiring one can realize a more consistent performance from the speaker.
If limited to onely one set of speaker cables it does make sense to use the Mid posts and not run through two sets of posts for any drivers. But one would have to listen to the permutations to determine what sounded best. Or, one could conceivably use two sets of jumper wires from the posts with the speaker cables. Might be tough but with determination should be possible and avoid the two sets of posts problem.
It is abundantly clear to my ears that utilizing multiple sets of speaker cables is a valid way to improve performance. :)
"The principle in discussion of single wiring and utilization of jumpers is similar to that in discussion of upgraded jumpers for integrated amps. Failure to pay attention to such details is one reason why many audiophiles never quite find that elusive satisfactory sound. I find cables to be the most overlooked and despised element in audio system building."
How would you know that failure to pay attention to "such details" as jumpers and single wiring is "one reason why many audiophiles never quite find that elusive satisfactory sound"? Have you done a survey?
I quote the next passage to show how you fail to apply the same standards of evidence to your own opinions that you do to others. When your reading of your experience is challenged, you then ask for proof, which you did not for your own interpretations of your experiences.
"As a rig improves in quality one can more easily hear the distinction in sound quality from bi-wiring. Some claim that the coherence of the speaker is harmed through bi-wiring, but I do not believe this has been demonstrated. If someone has tests which prove this, I would like to see them. I am open to being informed on that point. It is my experience that a speaker which is bi-wired has superior resolution, dynamics and involves the listener more than through single wiring."
Ah yes indeed! "If someone has tests which prove this, I would like to see them. I am open to being informed on that point." You know what? That's what I would like to see from those who claim that decent interconnects (at line level), that proper gauge speaker cables somehow sound different, and that buy-wiring makes an audible difference.
I would agree that a "claim that the coherence of the speaker is harmed through bi-wiring" needs real testing, but then so does your opinion that "As a rig improves in quality one can more easily hear the distinction in sound quality from bi-wiring." That looks like an extraordinary claim to me.
"Others may disagree, but I am not interested in arguing about this topic."
I'll go along with Kal this far: me neither. I would like to see some evidence that applies to 10-12 foot speaker cables suitable for high fidelity applications though. It hasn't been forthcoming.
We do know that cables can make an audible difference under some circumstances. Differences in resistance can make an audible difference due to differences in the levels and the frequency responses into a speaker load but that hardly justifies expensive wires. Very long cables may cause an audible loss of high frequencies due to inductance. As well, it seems some amps are very sensitive to capacitive loads, but I would want such an amp. Mine is not.
-----
"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser
you get your results. ;)
In his system, to his ears, biwiring most likely would NOT make any difference whatsoever.
It's a shame though, since Paradigm Signature speakers must be pretty revealing, to let him hear differences in amps, cables etc. I'm not familiar with Quad amp/preamp, and Rotel CD player is of course just what it is, i.e. doesn't help matters.
It's mostly the mental block, and this pony is probably just too old to learn any new tricks. Or, more to the point, unlearn the old ones.
Paradigm Signature S2--rated Class A Limited Low Frequency Extension by Stereophile.
Now, that you don't have your Kef speakers anymore, what are you using? For some reason, you seem reluctant to say . . .
-----
"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser
"Paradigm Signature S2--rated Class A Limited Low Frequency Extension by Stereophile."
That isn't exactly making a good case for the quality of the ears at Stereophile who made that decision. A decision that is made by one person incidentally. One guy reviewed them, one guy has the power to make the list. And it was the same guy.
Indeed I do, and my system sounds just fine.
-----
"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser
... here's huge difference: his remarks are based on listening experience, and yours - on ridiculous beliefs, untrained/impaired hearing, and all-encompassing cheapness.
you know, the ones you replaced your old Kefs with?
Is there some reason you're afraid to say?
-----
"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser
I have experimented quite a bit with speaker placement,the port plugs and room treatments (ASC tube traps and the 8x48 ASC panels).My room is pretty large so I can move the PSB's well in to the room (and I'm not married!)Initially getting smooth bass was a problem but I've cured that.Mids and highs are pretty darn good.I still hear what sounds like a cabinet resonance with the PSB's.The speakers are VERY revealing of slight shifts in speaker placement,tube rolling,and cables.
"The speakers are VERY revealing of slight shifts in speaker placement,tube rolling,and cables."
Let's take these individually.
Changing speaker placement (and/or listener placement) virtually always makes some audible difference. There's no mystery there.
I'm not into tubes, but I understand changing tubes can make an audible difference.
Unless you use long lengths or switch small and large wires, changing cables should make very little difference, far less than changing the speaker or listener placement by a small amount. But if you develop a preference for this or that cable, my advice is get what you prefer.
I still can't get carcass93 to reveal what speakers he now uses. I wonder why.
-----
"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser
What is most assuring about this post is that it is based on Mr. Schroeder's listening experience. But then I read Mr. Rubinson, who claims to have had a comparable listening experience and heard no improvement. So what are we to think? Two respectable reviewers, whom we presume have had comparably broad listening experience, come to diametricallly opposed conclusions.
One possible conclusion is that one man's "profound" is another's eh? That is often the case in audio though not usually among serious reviewers. We could also conclude that one of them is lying, deaf, or full of heifer dust. I'm afraid the most likely conclusion is that we see revealed before us the depressing possibility at the heart of audio reviewing and opinion: you can't believe anything that you read, even if it's from an Authority. You have to go listen for yourself and come home a Schroeder or a Rubinson. I'm a Schroeder myself.
I'll join the camp that has witnessed improvement from bi-wiring. Not an oh my but superior in the three instances I tried it.
ET
"Others may disagree, but I am not interested in arguing about this topic. "Me, neither. ;-) This topic is a huge waste of Internet bandwidth.
Kal
Edits: 11/11/10
Actually, insofar as you and Schroeder disagree with each other about something that is pretty obvious to you both, I don't think it's a waste of time at all. It's actually very revealing.
Pointless - what?
Biwiring in principle?
Biwiring PSB Imagine T?
What was the system that you performed comparison single-wired vs. bi-wired on? Using what cables? You, of course, performed the comparison before making this statement, right?
The same as for Doug above, this runs contrary to my own experience with 2 different speakers that allow biwiring, in slightly different systems.
Done it many times with many systems and cables. If the cables are decent, biwiring makes no difference. Therefore, IMHO, it is pointless to bi-wire.Now, you probably will be surprised to find out that I do bi-wire. My reasons are that (1) I have many, many cables, (2) there is no down-side and (3) it precludes some carping from others. ;-)
Kal
Edits: 11/11/10
the speakers are truly designed for bi-wiring (Vandersteen) or just provide two sets of input lugs. There are speakers that benefit and those that don't I would never use a blanket statement such as yours Kal.
"Man is the only animal that blushes - or needs to" Mark Twain
it is dangerous to make generalizations but, until I find an exception, my hypothesis is intact.
BTW, the only issue about whether a speaker is "designed for bi-wiring" is whether the filters for the LF and the HF are completely independent, including the grounds. Some of the ones I have used fit that description.
Kal
Reading this mini-thread just after reading Tony Lauck's speech on the Digital Asylum on how dacs that reveal differences in transports are flawed, I am faced with either ignoring what I hear or what I read.
No reason to ignore either. If you just ignore your own observations, you run the risk of being consistently unhappy. If you just ignore what you read, you run the risk of being mislead by your perceptions. I believe you have to understand and assess what you read to inform your perceptions but that you have to have the fortitude to reject/temper either after due consideration.
Kal
I was going for a laugh here.
LOL.
Post a Followup:
FAQ |
Post a Message! |
Forgot Password? |
|
||||||||||||||
|
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors: