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Have you noted a muted midrange? What I'm hearing is a lack of impact or attack and a muted response overall. I miss hearing it most on things like hand claps, cymbals, snare drums, and even on piano key stikes. It took me a while to notice this, but when I had another set of speakers in the same room driven by the same equipment, it became impossible to ignore. Now I'm beginning to wonder if the mid range drivers are working correctly.
Has anyone else experienced the same thing? Any suggestions for checking the drivers or other trouble shooting?
Thanks
Follow Ups:
I know this thread is a bit old, but to the OP, you should try to listen to the new Nucleus Reference 3.5. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised, amazed even :D
Gallo's tweeter has about 300 degrees dispersion, therefore toe-in is not required to get good treble response, it is only necessary to roughly adjust midrange response / directivity.
However, contrary to regular speakers, one adjusts the midrange/treble focus by tilting the speakers back and forth until one finds the sweet spot. That's why the speakers come with longer front spikes.
Around the TILT sweet spot, soundstage height seems correct and the midrange has snap / definition. Above or below the sweet spot, comb effect of two midrange drivers operating in tandem will create a 'ripply" midrange response which can be perceived as hollow midrange.
Also, you can experiment with both woofers facing in or facing out. Depending on the distance to the side walls, one sounds much better than the other.
I hope this helps
Nice post, mate.
.
Thanks for all the comments.
Let me clarify - I am not attacking these speakers, I love them for what they do well, I fully agree with the comments about vocals, guitar, and violin, horns also sound great on them (particularly trumpet), they are very easy speakers to like. These speakers have a glorious tweeter no doubt about it, but what I am concerned with is the mid-range.
Maybe I stated the question poorly, I am commenting on something very specific that I couldn't hear without doing some back to back compares. For example, I was very happy with how the Ref 3s sounded with guitars and violins and still am with the exception of the "percusive" aspects of it, what I mean is the intial stike on the strings. For guitar an example would be the pick striking the strings, for violin a bow strike. For certain playing styles there is nothing to miss. As I said before this muting is most noticeable for me on hand claps, cymbals, and snares.
Has anyone else done a comparison listening for these aspects?
That is the question I posed, for which I still don't have an answer.
If I had not done this comparison, I would probably be writing the same replies that you folks have, and extolling the virtues of these speakers.
In answer to your questions/suggestions:
Grills - some initial listening was done with them on shortly after purchase, they have stayed off for good since then.
Room - they have been in three different rooms that I have systems in and was very happy with their performance in all three, until I noticed, for lack of a better term, the percussive muting. Since noticed, they have been tried back in one of the previous rooms with the same percussive muting noted. So for now I'm tentatively ruling out the room.
Amp - they have been tried with a "digital" amp, a high powered receiver, and spent most of their time on some extremely capable solid state monoblocks. Since noticing the percusive muting they have been on both the receiver and the monoblocks, but not the digital amp with the same results. I think I can safely rule out lack of power.
Speakers - In room 1 the Ref 3s were compared to two other speakers and in room 2 the Ref 3s were compared to three other speakers, with the same result each time. None of the other speakers are considered to be even forward and certainly none are rip your ears off forward.
This percussive muting went unnoticed without comparing to another speaker, but since I noticed it, I now hear it every time.
Are any of you owners out there willing to compare and tell me what you hear? I think my next step may be to open them up and investigate.
Thanks for the help.
That's pretty much what I thought you meant. With my Ref 3s, the "startle factor" on snare drums, for example, is just that -- startling. I have nothing to compare mine with, but one friend came to his from JM Labs Diva Utopias (msrp $12K, IIRC) and Nestorovics (forget model number, but about $8K originally) and the Ref 3s were much more "alive" and "immediate" than either.
See if you can locate an old Laserlight (!) CD by Bucky Pizzarelli called "Nirvana." which has the darndest drum solo on "Sing,Sing, Sing" I ever heard. Drummer is Bernard Purdie. If this sounds less than WAY startling, something is wrong, but I wouldn't bet on it being the Ref 3s.
Not surprisingly, they sound a bit muted with screen on.
But, without screens, I found their sound to be clear and robust.
What amp are you using? I went from an Adcom 555, which I still use for home theater, to a Music Reference RM-200II. I find the Adcom opaque and not particularly resolving in the mids, though I would not use the word recessed. The Music Reference cleared that up. The Adcom is also a little bright and etched. I suppose that if your are using an amp that is a little bright, the resultant sound could overshadow the mids. Again, the Music Reference cleared that up.
I sold Gallo and have heard two sets in peoples houses with lower powered set ups and they sounded very sweet. I have always had a little issue with how the tweeter and mid "integrate" but they still remain a favorite and a great value IMO.
ET
Question "Authority", the mainstream media sucks - Go Independent and hold BOTH parties accountable instead of just the other guys!
I need music to help forget the reality of today
I am not a Gallo Ref 3 user, however, I understand that the speakers are low-to-moderate with respect to efficiency. Thus more power could close the gap and could also make your comparison of "another set of speakers in the same room driven by the same equipment" immaterial.
Robert C. Lang
I doubt that it's a power issue (I've used 12 wpc SET monoblocks on mine for over 4 years). At 88dB sensitivity and with what sounds like a benign impedance curve, the Ref 3s are easy to drive, IMO. I've never noticed anything like what the OP is hearing. Two other folks have bought these speakers after hearing mine, and their clear, open, dynamic sound has been a major factor.
They ARE very room-sensitive and the farther I get mine into the room -- currently 8' out and 3-4' from side walls -- the better.
I defer to your personal experiences. Readers may be interested in the 6 Moons 2004 Gallo Ref 3 review in which the reviewer stated: ***At 88dB, these speakers clearly want more power than my 30wpc tube monos deliver....***It should be noted that the review room was on the large side and in that sized room, especially, 88 db, is not considered particularly "sensitive".
Oh, another factor could be how loud the listener plays his music as well as music type. He said: ***I miss hearing it most on things like hand claps, cymbals, snare drums, and even on piano key stikes***. So, percussion seemed to be an issue. I have found that in order to bring the dynamics, dynamic range, and micro dynamics out with these instruments that it is most often necessary to turn the volume up.
Robert C. Lang
Edits: 12/21/09
Every amp is different....
ET
Question "Authority", the mainstream media sucks - Go Independent and hold BOTH parties accountable instead of just the other guys!
I need music to help forget the reality of today
My room is 18 x 40' with a large "L" off one of the 40' sides and I've never clipped the amps. Granted these have humongous trannies and 845 output tubes (but just one per side) and the amps' designer/builder may have been conservative in his power rating. But I drove the predecessor Gallo Ultimates (four "balls" per side) with the same amps and know for a fact that some of the pre-production testing of the Ref 3s involved a 10 watt amp, solid state at that.
One of the friends who bought his after hearing my Ref 3s is also driving them with the same SET monoblocks.
Can't account for the 30-watter that didn't make the grade.
One point: I'm using the Gallo subwoofer amp on the woofers' second voice coils, so the SETs don't need to power the really low frequencies (below ~45 Hz).
That is a huge room. Do have your speaks in the symetrical end with perpendicular walls. Make your triangle smaller and within 5' of the wall behind your speaks. Try sitting at or someplace within 2' of the apex of your new triangle with bout a half way toe-in. And clear out anything between you and the plane of your speakers. The sweet spot position will add gain from the front end of your room and flesh out your midrange with better bass. Your soundscape may become more cohesive and natural, too. If that doesn't happen, keep adjusting your listening position or the size of your triangle.Oh, fooey, just realized that I was confusing Dave's room with the original inquiry. Nevertheless, it is sound principle and will reward.
Edits: 12/26/09
Thanks for the suggestions (some of which I've adopted in the past), but I think I've got a pretty good fix on the room and where the speakers work best, at least according to a lot of people who have listened to them here. Me too.
Behind the listening sofa, which accommodates six and is about half-way back in the 40' length, there is an alcove off to the left that is another 30' deep and averages 15' wide. I violate one of the basic premises by having a 250 lb. low coffee table between me and the slightly toed speakers. It's not going anywhere. The entire space is carpeted and there's a lot of art on the walls, plus a 6 x 9' equipment rack behind the speakers. "Formal" room treatments are confined to a few Room Tunes. The system sounds its absolute best with no more then three people present. More than that and they become human "Tube Traps" soaking up the natural ambiance.
And yes, the SET amps put out just 12 wpc and I have never wished for more power.
Hi, Dave. My reply was intended for Nick but having just read his second post I see that he has tried other rooms and speakers. Oh, well, glad everything is good with you.
Forgot to mention this earlier, Jim. There's something screwy going on with your home page, at least via Safari.
Oh wow, dunno, Dave. Comes up typing its name in my yahoo browser. What do you know that I don't? Tell me more. Thanks. Jim
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