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In Reply to: RE: All Merlin owner's! posted by howard on November 06, 2009 at 11:31:22
The guy has milked more out of that design than the law should allow.....which version is this and how much are they? flabergasted.
If he has heard both the old and new versions, - then he would have firmer ground to stand on regarding their value.
Everything else is just unfounded noise.
There are no more humans
Finally, robotic beings rule the world
The humans are dead
but I am certain they sound great as the VSM SE sounded great to me and I am sure the new units are improved. I was just wondering about how much the price has gone up relative to the underlying speaker not changing much (though the 'system' has changed plenty). Never said once, the speaker does not sound good....I am sure you can spend more more and come away less pleased....I managed to spend less money and come away more pleased....no I dd not hear Bobby's latest speaker as it would not workd for me. I am into low powered SET amps and Boby's speakers are capable of Magic I am sure but they are not capable of making a SE 45 sound good......My view on value is my view....Bobby can get what he can while he can so long as the market bears it...still does not change my perception of value.....some people think a Patek watch is worth it while others think a Seiko is all you need....value perception is an individual thing.
If a design survives the test of time, isn't that a tribute to the fact that many people like what they hear (even if some don't).
Of course there is the "they don't know any better argument"....(and we non-owners do).
"Live free or die"
nt
The Merlin VSM SE is a classic speaker. I am just stunned at how much the price has gone up utilizing the same 'basic' speaker. I went with a more efficient design years ago so that I could dabble in low powered SETs. I don't know, but I thought a front firing integrated subwoofer would have done more for the speaker and would have been more cost effective. $13,200 for the top of the line.....wow that basic speaker before all the tweaks was about 4,500? I know the new caps. I first came to know them four years ago. They are very good. $7,500 for tweaks seems excessive but that is just my opinion......
Edits: 11/07/09
so you are comparing a $13,200 MSRP VSM-MXe speaker system which comes with the optional fully differential balanced BAM and Premium Clear-coat finish to a 4,500 VSM from years ago that had:
- No BAM
- No RC's
- No other internal improvements (like less expensive [and not as good performing] feet, binding posts, and inductors to name a number of differences)
- No premium clear-coat speaker finish which adds about $1,500 retail to the price of the speakers (they had a standard much less expensive painted finish on the original VSMs which is still available on VSM models today)
The above items may be "tweaks" to you, but they add considerable amount to the parts and manufacturing cost of the speaker (not to mention their effect on the sound quality of the speaker SYSTEM)... especially the optional Dual Ops differential balanced BAM (essentially it's two BAMs in one enclosure) which is about $1,700 more than the standard RCA In/out BAM which 90% of customers buy with their speakers.
Anyway... let do a quick analysis: Take a standard studio black VSM-MMe speaker SYSTEM available today with RCA in/out BAM runs around $9,000 retail (this is the item that Merlin makes today which is most similar to those $4,500 VSM speakers of yore... i.e. merlin's entry level two way floor standing speaker) and lets take out the cost for all these extra items (as listed in the retail price sheet on Merlin's website) which you now get in VSMs now that you did not get with those $4,500 VSMs:
Subtract BAM price ($2,400), RC Networks ($360), Z-feet ($335), and Jumpers ($50) and you get a pair of studio Black VSM's speakers alone effectively cost $5,855 today. I'll add some extra dollars back in for the old style feet that originally came with the speakers and round it up to $6K.
So, even though the speakers you get now have better made cabinets, much better and more expensive inductors in the xover, better binding posts, better internal wiring, and probably some other improvements I am missing.... effectively the pair of speakers themselves have only gone up $1,500 in 15 years. Thats about a 2% price increase per year.
So... The added cost of those "tweaks"??? Actually more like $3,000. If one wants the crazy expensive (and really good sounding IMO) Dueland parts in your BAM and RC's, that OPTION adds $1,500 more to your "tweak" price total. Since the Dueland parted BAM & RCs is OPTIONAL - its up to the customer ears and pocketbook to make the decision whether they want to spend that money or not on that. The base Merlin VSM-MMe is still around $9,000 MSRP.
Happy Listening,
Rich Brkich
Retailer & Audio Asylum Industry Liaison
My VSM SEs came with RC & BAM. I think the speaker connectors were Music Posts.
Rich, are you saying the VSM SE were $4,500 15 years ago and that is how you can up with 2% a year to reach $6,000? I thought that was about 8 years ago but I may be mistaken? Also at $4,500 the customer was told it does not get any better than this.....now to get a comparable,,,it does not get better than this will set you back $13K+.....hence my comparison of top of the line.....speaker of parts and value.....my amp was about $2,000 complete....with cost not being an object as to parts........compare that to the $2,400 chip BAM.....instead of BAMs and tweaks, why not come up with a real full range speaker instead of using an equilizer?. Price should not be a consideration as there are many speakers that cost much much more and many are not much better if better at all.....RC networks for $360? Those are basically caps if memory serves me correctly.....$335.00 for feet. You can get a good set of output transformers for that price and much more goes in to an opt than some screw on feet? So Booby's price has not gone up much? What was the cost of his top of the line system 8 years ago versus now? I know it is not apples to apples but the underlying speaker is the same unless you tell me he is using new driver technology which I noticed you did not mention? All the other things are ancillary improvements to the speakers. Sure they sound better but perhaps he could have managed to look into some nice field coils and possibly develop something new and more cost effective even...
Edits: 11/07/09
but to many that have purchased or reviewed the speakers over the last number of years, they have found its benefits to be a ground breaker.
things cost what they cost and the retail price is a function of their cost especially here at merlin. like anything else, if the perceived value is not to a person's liking, they do not have to buy it. but the benefits of the sbam or master bam are enormous due to its bandpass filtering. do not kid yourself, every speaker on the planet would benefit from one if properly done to suit.
geo, i have the september 2001 issue of stereophile in my hand when mf reviewed the vsm m in ruby heart with a battery bam, retail $8150. that was just over 8 years ago. do you have any ideas what we have added to the speaker in 8 years and how much my costs have gone up? get real!
vsm se's came out in 1997, 11 years ago.
by for now...
b
It is just my opinion which remains unchanged....given what people will pay for a jar of marbles that is supposed to make the music room sound better, your BAM may be a steal....have you considered a field coil based speakers system or any other drivers? I know what has not been added to your speakers in 8 years....new drivers which some people refer to as speakers......now that I think about it, maybe if you had better drivers to start with, you would not have to 'upgrade' the speakers every 18 months or so to make them sound 'better'.....If you are telling me that the feet are a huge difference at $350.0 a set, then there must be something wrong....also, if you need an equilizer to improve the sound, then again, fix the problem instead of treating the symptom....
Edits: 11/09/09
geo, all of this coming from a person who has not even heard any of the recent merlin product. one who makes value judgements on 11 year old versions which are 4 to 5 times out of date. making assumptions are we?
some of us like very refined things and respect them for that and the effort it took. you obviously do not. in all fairness geo, you really need to hear them.
the bam is much more than you think it is and so is the z foot for that matter.
b
I am certain they sound great and you can sell them at whatever price the market will bear. I am certain they are much improved over the VSM SE which sounded great years ago. It just seems at some point maybe start with something different. I believe Rich or someone else brought up Vandersteen as offering a classic speaker that has not changed much....well The Vandersteen 5 is a far cry from the Vandersteen 1.....Not the same speakers with an equilizer and 'upgraded' parts and feet and screws .....I still was wondering if the speakers (i.e. drivers) have remained the same over the years or has the coating or something changed such that they are now considered a 'different' driver? Seems like the TSM have gone up a little but the VSM have gone up a a bunch? I did not bring the topic up. Someone else mentioned the 'upgraded' BAM with the new caps (which are nice BTW. I don't need to hear the speakers because I am sure they sound great, like lots of speakers out there. At even half that amount they better sound great or something is wrong....Also, I don't want to have to find the right amp and cables to get the speakers to sound 'right'....I like my amp and my speakers and got off the 'upgrade' wagon years ago.....I am in the process of having a new preamp built but that has nothing to do with improving sound. It will have a nice pair of Electraprint ine outs, plate chokes, a nice PSU with an all polyprop power supply, a nice ladder attenuator tants, rikens etc at a price that is less than the BAM........
much better it actually sounds than what you owned. and how it compares to others in other price ranges. speculation does not work here, first hand knowledge does.
at shows and in review press it is still considered to be right up there.
yes, the vsm has gone up in price but my costs have sky rocketed and we have added many new and expensive things to the project. how many other products have been in production for 14 years? what else do you expect with so many quality additions and upgrades? do you realize that there are single driver speakers and other 2 ways that sell for double the vsm mxe. why not go after them? and never forget that the base vsm (the vsm mme) is still only $9200 which is $1050 more than the vsm m reviewed in sterophile 8 years ago and quite frankly, it murders it! all this coupled with a low mark up on my cost (to my knowledge an industry low) ... you are way off base.
it seems to me that you are one of those "buy new idea" guys. well i am not! i like refinement and am dedicated to it. it also seems to me that you would like a design that fits in with your knowledge of what your electronics offer. i feel that a lot of things have to be taken care of in a speaker's design to make it sound true. hense, the sensitivity may go down. new drivers i have played with. still have not found a better hf driver compared to the way i use the esotar. and i have looked at field coils and the extended coil (hung) drivers. i have not found one that works better than what i have accomplished for my system or that sounds as true. the sbam which you do not appreciate, is also a bandpass filter that enables the woofer's voice coil to stay in linear drive at much higher levels accomplishing what these others claim to do. it also rids the system of 2nd and 3rd order distortion in the bass and im distortion in the usable bandwidth above. i do not change things just to make a change and a complete redesign better be spectacular or my name won't appear on it.
when and if i come out with a new product it will surely not be for low powered amps only. but will be wider in bandwidth and for larger rooms.
thanks for your yearly comments. we have gone over this many times before. i won't change your opinion and you certainly won't change mine.
enjoy your system geo.
best, b@m
I think we are in agreement that your new speaker sounds much better than the old as 1) I will take your word as well as others for it and I only specualte that it sound good. I can't imagine it not sounding excellent with the right setup 2) I would expect it to sound better thatn the oldy system given the 'improvements'which has resulted in an increase in price, which must be acceptable to the customer otherwise the market would not bear it forcing the price down. I know for certain that there are speakers that sell for more that have had 'less development' go in to them. Some may sound 'better' and I am sure alot sound worse. I would not buy those either. I don't know how many times I can say the 1) Merlins would not work for me because of my ineterest in low powered amps. 2) I don't want the speakers to dictate what amps I use 3) I, (and it is MY view) just can't get over using an equilizer much like I don't want tone controls. It is just my opinion. I am sure in the right situation and implemented properly both can sound just fine, but I am not interested in it. Thanks for mentioning the other drivers that you have looked in to and now I understand that they won't work in your system as you pointed out that you are interested in refining your design. However, one could argue that had you started with a blank piece of paper 8 years ago, perhaps you would have come up with something that you liked better and you could ditch the BAM....something like a front firing integrated subwoofer or perhaps an equilizer is just easier to implement. Or are you saying a BAM is more effective in moving air than a pair of front firing integrated subwoofers? Also as you pointed out, cost should not be much of a consideration as many people buy more speaker systems.....I am still surprised at how the basic design remains unchanged and how a lot of incremental improvements (which the market obviously values or you could not get the market price)have resulted in a big change in price. It also comes down to reference points as for some reason I am hung up on the VSM SE with the AC BAM which was at the heart of the 'system' maybe 10 years ago, but I could be mistaken. So now that I think about it, if the price for top of the line then versus top of the line now has gone from $5500 to $13,000 then it only amounts to a 9% annualized increase and if you factor in inflation it is probably a fair price.....I am glad I got out of the game when I did.
geo, the sbam cures way more ills in distortion, power handling, output and balancing the sound than any negative that it could cause. ALWAYS do a comparison to see what you gain and what you lose and then you will see the sbam is a win, win situation. it is not just an eq (tone control as you put it) but a phase optimizer and filter system. the fact is the cabinet size in the vsm was designed small to produce the best possible midrange and the op amps in the sbam flesh out the bottom the proper amount electronically. NO passive system would ever accomplish this. a big box gives deeper bass and the mids go south and a small one gives perhaps more right mids but the bass goes south. and because you have not heard the vsm mxe you assume that you need subs, perhaps you wouldn't. the sbam is designed to make the bass decend 10 hz lower than it would passively, decrease the distortion, increase output and power handling. no sub will do what the sbam does to optimize the vsm's bottom octave. and no the sbam does not move th air of subs. they are different and do different things. the speaker is designed for smaller rooms where subs may not be needed. a bigger room may require one but you still use the sbam to optimize the low end of the vsm so that you can cross the swoofer in more precisely with a more exact cut.
the vsm se with an ac bam was just under $6000. the most comparable speaker made today is the vsm mme with an sbam at $9020. forget about the balanced sbam and vsm mxe. none of that was available back then. it is not best compared to the best but a comparison to the most similar. this is more fair.
best, b
Thanks Bobby. Actually that clears things up for me and keep in mind I have yet to question the quality of the sound, which I am sure is excellent. Different strokes is all this amounts to.
geo, i know what you mean. what i do is not for everyone and yours is not the only reason why. i just keep doing what i think is right.
if you ever have a chance to listen to the vsm mxe, master bam and rcs, listen carefully. i am very proud of them.
see yuh!
b
No problem. If I have a chance, I will give them a listen for the fun of it. I can't imagine changing speakers but one I would be interested in is a Supravox.
geo, i am not trying to make you change your speakers but to put this to rest so you understand how far they have come. i know they do not have your kind of efficiency.
best, b
Well, I screwed parts of that post all up!... My apologies and lets see if I can untangle and clarify some things...
I just did some rummaging around through some OLD files I have on old Merlin lit and stuff. When the VSM's originally came out (some years before the SE model) they were $3,500 retail... (So, I messed that up - I was thinking they were $4,500 back then) and they did first come out in '94. VSM-SE's of course came later (I'm pretty sure that was around 97) and I think price was initially $4,500 on them, then went to $5K on the VSM-SE. It was so long ago though, I can't recall to be sure the exact price changes back then and my files do not have all the info.
At the time - the speakers were the best that Merlin can do... just as I'm sure the first/early versions of the Vandy 2, Harbeth HLP3 etc etc were as good as their respective designers could do at that time. The underlying basic design may still be the same, but the technology around and in it has changed....a Speaker is more than just its drivers and the size/shape of its box. Instead of trying to re-invent the wheel every couple years like some designers do, Bobby (like many others) has chosen to try to continually improve on a fundamentally good design.
As well, to get better than the old VSM-SE (circa 97/98) today, the current TSM-MMe (about $3K retail) sounds better for less IMO (though you do sacrifice some bass extension and efficiency though).
I think a most expensive Merlin 8 to 9 years ago would have been a premium finish VSM-M with dual ops BAM which would have been around $9k to $10K retail (I don't have retail price sheets from back then to have a exact price)... so over 8+ years prices have gone up $3K to $4k to current (similarly equipped) VSM-MXe w/Dual Ops BAM.
Why not build a bigger speaker without the BAM? Well, that is a question for Bobby. Bobby will tell you I (and others) have been bugging him to build a bigger merlin for years. The BAM does allow the VSM to do certain things that the speakers alone can't while retaining a number of very beneficial performance and physical characteristics. Engineering is the art of compromise and trade-offs though... yes, I do imagine you could take what the BAM costs and put those dollars toward other things (bigger enclosure, more drivers, more crossover parts), but then you loose what the VSM is about. You would have something different and new, but better?
Onto things like RC's... things are more than the cost of their parts. Yes, there is the cost of the parts, then there is the cost of solder station to put it together, the cost of the employee that makes them, the cost of the space that the employee works in, the cost to heat that space, the cost to pay comp insurance, the cost of the phone, the cost of electricity for the shop, accounting costs, etc etc. Then of course there is the cost of some profit to be made on the items made and also profit for the dealer. Unfortunately since the scale of most Hi-End audio manufacturing is so small, retail costs per unit wind up being high to pay for all these costs... hence you can wind up with a set of 4 RC networks retailing for $360 or a pair of Walker High Definition Links (an RC network also) retailing for $450.
I'm not a finance guy....I messed up my math on the price increase thing!!! LOL I was trying to figure the price change from the original 94 VSM to the current studio black VSM-MME. I should have used a interest calculator... I re-checked my math, and the correct number is around 5% per increase per year if I did things correctly. If we are comparing to VSM-SE speakers with the original BAM, I'll have to check the number again as there is some price difference between the original BAM that was offered with the SE (I DID forget the BAM was available with the VSM-SE - sorry - my screw up) and what is available now. The BAM that came with the VSM-SE had to be the original AC powered unit as opposed to the Battery based unit that is available today (which also has a some other improvements which have been made to it over the years).
So, trying to take that into account... add $1,500 to my cost adjusted price of the VSM-MMe to include the cost of the old AC BAM which brings the price up to $7,500 vs $4,500 for what the VSM-SE with BAM costed in 1997. Over about 11 years that works out to a avg annual price increase of about 5% per year. Depending on your point of view and understanding (or lack of) of what is in the speaker and the cost to do business and how that has changed over the years - you may feel this is un-reasonable or very fair rate of increase. The VSM speaker system costs what they cost... if Bobby could make a fully optioned out VSM-MXE for $7,000 or $5,000 retail today - I'm sure he would because the sound/value proposition would be pretty amazing for this day and he would sell more product.
OK... I think that is enough rambling... going back to lurker status.
Happy Listening,
Rich Brkich
Retailer & Audio Asylum Industry Liaison
nt
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