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new speakers for a small room.

72.220.168.76

Hey there everyone, I'm posting this to see if I can get some advice from any of you out there who might have some experience with a few speakers I'm interested in to replace my existing Jean Marie Reynaud Twin Mk.11's.
The system is set up in a 10 x 12 foot bedroom. the room has 8 foot ceilings. Fairly typical I believe.

I wonder if anyone has spent much time with any of the speakers mentioned on my list. I realize the Harbeth has yet to appear on these shores yet.

I primarily listen to rock and jazz with a little bit of everything else to keep it interesting.

I'm looking for something that still has those great human qualities of the Reynuad's but a little more refinement and poise. A more transparent sound with a cleaner, sweeter treble would be welcome.

Here is the electronics side of the system the will need to fit into:

VPI Scoutmaster turntable
Dynavector 10x5 cartridge
EAR 834P Phono
Pure Sound A30 amplifier
Cables are Origin Live phono, Supra EFF-IX interconnects, Analysis Oval 12 speaker, Oyaide Tunami and TG Audio HSRI power cords.

These are some of the possible choices.

1. Harbeth P3-ESR
2. Devore Gibbon 3
3. Spendor A5
4. Odeon Orfeo
5. Odeon Rigoletto

Then there are also the Sonist stand mounts and maybe also a pair of Tannoy 10's. My budget is $2,500. There are to many choices. If you have any advice or just encouraging words it would be appreciated.

Follow Ups:

RE: new speakers for a small room. - soundquest 17:56:59 08/09/09 (0)
So the Odeons showed up about a week ago and I'm very,very happy with them.

I thought they might be a little to much speaker for the room but, no, they are a perfect fit.

I actually can't believe the things they are capable of in my small space.

Massively large soundstage, effortless dynamics, and highs that are as sweet and delicate as I could have only imagined. The A30 now seems like a much better amp than i originally thought(and I thought it was good already). The impedance of the Odeons might have a lot to do with that.

Listening to some old favorites leaves with me a big silly grin on my face or uncontrollable giggling. I'm delighted.

Bass couples to the air in the room perfectly with no bass traps in place.
It's clean and clear, with weight and punch I can't believe. There is maybe a little overhang on certain records and for this I might try some Big Fat Dot's under them. A couple sheets of cardboard are providing momentary decoupling from the floor with good results.

So there you go, Odeon Rigoletto's work wonderfully in a small room.

I am very happy, and can see a nice long future ahead with these speakers.

Room treatment doesn't seem needed at this point, although i might try some of the natural fiber alternatives to tame the first reflection a little. For now I'd rather keep the room on the lively side rather than deadening it to much. I encourage anyone thinking about room treatments to read Jules Coleman's review of the Box furniture on Enjoy The Music.
It was also very helpful to me.

Even though I did not take anyone's specific advice on what to purchase, this experience helped me great deal to clarify my own thoughts and what it is i want from my system.

Now it's time for some music!
Dali - JerryS 07:40:31 07/18/09 (0)
I have Euphonia series in my main system, Mentors in the HT system, and Ikons in the bedroom. Especially in their smaller speakers, the crossovers are inaudible which is not the case with many other brands. After you enjoy the *natural* clarity, resolution and air of the ribbon tweeters it becomes very difficult to find something truly competitive.

Happy listening.

Regards,
JerryS
RE: new speakers for a small room. - Art V 04:12:57 07/03/09 (0)
Micropure Kotaros.
I have a pair and love them. Amazing sound driven by a TRI 45 wpc intergrated. Rave reviews from various shows.
Art
Forget about most box speakers. - Abel McCain 03:04:28 07/03/09 (13)
Most box speakers need a bigger home than you are able to provide. Start looking at speakers designed for placement on shelves, in corners, or on walls. Dynaudio MC-15's are high quality desktop/nearfield speakers that should work well. The Hornshoppe speakers are another good suggestion. But, you want the illusion of clarity. You need a speaker that quickly rolls off in bass below 80 hz., because deep bass will sound as if it's out of control in that room. A large radiating surface and placement flexibility is also desirable, for maximimum soundstage height and width. I'd say that you might WANT or NEED ------>
- MC-1 (Open in New Window)
Edits: 07/03/09 07/03/09
- RE: Forget about most box speakers. - soundquest 17:25:01 07/03/09 (12)
  Point taken Abel. The Reynaud's are pretty happy fit size wise in this room I think. I have listened to them in a room that was just 3ft. longer and that was a more comfortable distance but the room had all sorts of other problems that made the size of less of an issue. This room is much better balanced mostly because it's construction is more solid(thick old lathe and plaster walls,hardwood floors,stiffer floor joists).
  
  My main issue is not the size of the Reynauds it's the slight veiling that they impart to pretty much every thing. That and the fact that my new amp, while it is great, has a richer more full sound that the previous Audiomat did not. This leads to some music having a thicker fuller bass than I would ideally like. Now maybe this is more of an amp issue but I think keeping the amp(it is more open in the mids and highs) and reaching for a speaker that suits its strenghts is the way I want to go.
  
  I think from what I'm hearing about the Duets they might be a really superb match, keeping those qualities witch I love about Reynaud's yet giving a faster, cleaner, more open,more authoritative sound.
  
  I guess that leaves the Duets,Harbeth(when it does arrive at my dealer), the Devore, or the Odeons. My only concern is that with the Odeons that the size of the room may well become more of an issue. The horns that I've heard(BIG Zingalli's and Klipsch) seem to need more distance between the listener and the speaker.
  - I used to listen in a 10' x 12' room... - Abel McCain 19:44:06 07/03/09 (11)
    ... with typical two-way speaker designs. I just could'nt get far enough away from the speakers (allowing for 2' behind, 1 1/2' at the sides of speakers, and listening seat almost up against the rear wall), or give the speakers enough room. A 10' x 15' room is the minimum size for comfortable listening and good sound with typical speaker designs, I think. You seem to be stuck on the Reynaud brand, so go for it if you must. But I will say that if I had to do the small room thing all over again, I would try to "think outside of the box". My first thought would probably be, "How can increase the speaker-to-ear listening distance in this small room?". There are some good sounding speakers in production today that are designed for cramped listening arrangements, but few of them enable soundstaging and space-saving like the Magnepan MC-1.
    - Check out my system over at Audiogon... - Nicholas Renter 07:53:12 07/04/09 (8)
      ...and you'll see that my room has awful geometry (11' x 11.5' x 12'), but provides an oustanding listening experience. Don't let anyone discourage you. Small rooms have their challenges, but they also have some huge advantages:
      
      1) You only have to optimize the sound for one single listening position
      2) You don't need a lot of amplification power
      3) Spousal Acceptance Factor isn't usually as significant
      4) Less square footage to acoustically treat
      
      But the challenges are real:
      
      1) If you do not put up acoustic treatments on the walls, and bass traps in the corners, you really are wasting your time and money.
      2) You need an amplifier and speakers that respond well and are articulate at lower volumes and wattages (hense my selection of Green Mountain Audio and Ayre).
      3) Get youself a comfortable office chair and an ottoman.
      4) While is sounds like overkill, 2 small subs are a perfect compliment to stand-mount speakers (crossed-over well under 40 Hz). These help control the level of the low end allows variable placement / phase control to help smooth out the low end.
      5) Consider the heat you equipment generates, as that will play a factor in the enjoyment of your small room. This is another one of the reasons I bought an Ayre integrated over going back to tubes.
      
      And while I have not done this one yet...
      
      6) Power filtration is important.
      My System (Open in New Window)
      - RE: Check out my system over at Audiogon... - jimdgoulding@yahoo.com 22:41:02 07/12/09 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Check out my system over at Audiogon... posted by Nicholas Renter on July 04, 2009 at 07:53:12
        
        FRIEND, WHAT A MONEY AND AWE INSPIRING POST YOU'VE MADE. That garners respect where I live. Even if it weren't in Texas. Cheers.
        
        Edits: 07/12/09
      - RE: Check out my system over at Audiogon... - l2sasm 19:29:51 07/12/09 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Check out my system over at Audiogon... posted by Nicholas Renter on July 04, 2009 at 07:53:12
        
        Why not go for the new JMR Duet. By the way, which software are you using for creating your room floor plan. Just curious
        
        Good luck!
        l2sasm
      - I did and I am very impressed! - DSG 18:22:35 07/11/09 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Check out my system over at Audiogon... posted by Nicholas Renter on July 04, 2009 at 07:53:12
        
        You did a fantastic job of showing and describing your system in room and the choices that you made and why. I am bookmarking it for future consideration. Fantastic contribution to this forum. Thanks.
      - RE: Check out my system over at Audiogon... - soundquest 23:30:36 07/05/09 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Check out my system over at Audiogon... posted by Nicholas Renter on July 04, 2009 at 07:53:12
        
        Wow! Wonderful room and system Nicholas. Very impressive. It's encouraging to see someone put the thought and care that you so obviously have into a smaller system. This is the kind of thing I have only seen a handful of times and only in much larger more costly systems. I bet it sounds fantastic!
        
        I have been putting off room treatments for way to long. I am aware of this. I always rationalize it in my mind thinking that some one like me with limited resources can always do things like this at a latter date and it just never gets done. The big purchase always wins out. I want to do it right this time and your advice just reinforces the justification for doing so. I have tried to arrange the room the best i could by putting a large Persian rug on the right side wall and record storage and bookshelves on the left. this obviously is not very balanced but does help quite a bit.
        
        Any recommended companies that make room treatments? The Real Traps look effective but also kind of bulky. My room is set up almost like yours with just a few differences. The doorways in the room are on the rear wall to the left and right hand side of the listening posistion. There are two windows in the room, one is on the center of the front wall like yours is, the other is on the right hand wall in the upper corner of the room. Were would I put a bass trap in this posistion? The rear wall is obviously out because of the doorways.
        
        Thanks again! Sucks that the Callisto's are no longer available.
        
        A couple of things... - Nicholas Renter 06:26:47 07/06/09 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Check out my system over at Audiogon... posted by soundquest on July 05, 2009 at 23:30:36
        
        First of all, give Roy Johnson a call at GMA about your speaker wants / needs. Trust me.
        I used Acoustics First for my panels. The prices are killer if you stick to their stock panel sizes. Have them send you a set of fabric samples before you order. It's a must. I'm very satisfied with their product and service.
        Without seeing a diagram of your room, it's hard to suggest sizes and placement of panels. There is also a good acoustics forum over at AudioCircle.com. If you can put together a diagram, post it over there as well. Good people.
        Acoustics First (Open in New Window)
        
        Edits: 07/06/09
        
        RE: A couple of things... - soundquest 20:03:59 07/12/09 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: A couple of things... posted by Nicholas Renter on July 06, 2009 at 06:26:47
        
        Alright, so here is what I've decided to do. Room treatments are going to be put on hold AGAIN. I know, I know, but it won't be for long I assure you. The reason why? Read on.
        
        For the speakers I've decide to go with the Odeon Rigoletto's. At first they seemed on the large side for the size of the room and not to mention over budget, but after many conversations with Jeffrey Catalano(who I can't say enough good things about), he assures me they will work with the available space and not against it. He also gave me a pretty stupid deal on them so if for any reason they don't work out I should be able to recoup my expenses. I'm not worried. I have the utmost confidence in Jeff.
        
        So that's where things stand for now. A little over budget but that's alright. The speakers won't show up for a few weeks most likely, but if you're interested in seeing a pic of the actual pair that are being sent to me you can find them on the RMAF 2008 page over at Audiogon. I'll post some pics of my own over there when everything looks presentable!
        
        Thanks again everyone!
      - Excellent advice - gd 06:31:28 07/05/09 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Check out my system over at Audiogon... posted by Nicholas Renter on July 04, 2009 at 07:53:12
        
        On two fronts:
        
        1) Green Mountain Audio Callisto, I think they should be a consideration for anyone thinking small.
        
        2) Room treatment, essential to get that small area bass right, essential for everyone, of course. I think with the right treatment a small room can present a better listening environment than a large untreated family room. Large forces MAY still be a challenge, and really only in fortissimo passages.
        
        If this is a spare bedroom and you can do what you want, try to include ceiling absorption, as well as the walls and corners. You might also play with setting up the system on the diagonal.
        
        Gregg
      - Yes... - Abel McCain 09:25:20 07/04/09 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Check out my system over at Audiogon... posted by Nicholas Renter on July 04, 2009 at 07:53:12
        
        Of course, if you are completely happy with a nearfield presentation and one good seating position in a small room then there is no problem. My problem is that, having gone from a 10' x 12' room to a 12' x 33' one, I can no longer deal with the intensity of nearfield listening on a full time basis. But none of us should lose the ability to deal with changing circumstances in life and if I had to go back to a nearfield set up in a 10' x 12' room again, I would want loudspeakers that might occasionally allow for a midfield perspective. I would probably buy speakers that could be placed in the corners or against the front wall and I would shove my listening chair almost all the way back to the opposite wall, giving me close to 9 or 10 feet of listening distance. Distance in listening (at least in the relative sense) can be "like a breath of fresh air" now and then...
        
        Edits: 07/04/09 07/04/09
    - RE: I used to listen in a 10' x 12' room... - sounquest 23:01:59 07/03/09 (1)
      Thanks for the input. I really do appreciate any opinions anyone has to share with me but I've never really cared for maggies that much. I've only heard the larger models(1.6's and 3.6's), and they require a bit of space, but they just didn't really click for me.
      
      This is why I'm thinkin' Harbeth's might be a good option. I don't really have a problem listening in the near field. the specs on paper look a little funny with 83db and 30 watts but I guess i'll just have to see for myself.
      - RE: I used to listen in a 10' x 12' room... - Abel McCain 06:13:32 07/04/09 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I used to listen in a 10' x 12' room... posted by sounquest on July 03, 2009 at 23:01:59
        
        I'm sure the Harbeths are fine speakers and if you are willing to work with them in that room you will be happy. But let me mention Omega XRS single-driver loudspeakers as another coherent sounding, "room friendly" option that comes to mind. Corner or close-to-wall placement is not much of a problem, while bass extension is similar to two-way nearfield monitors. Finish quality is especially nice. Good luck in your project.
        Omega Loudspeakers (Open in New Window)
        
        Edits: 07/04/09 07/04/09 07/04/09
Thought about hornshoppe horns? - badman 20:51:08 07/02/09 (1)
In a room that size, they really shine, and stickin' 'em in the corners really makes the room much more useful. Not to mention, they come in well under budget.

Bass is supposed to sound big. 6.5" is not a woofer size.

Please note my dual status as reviewer and manufacturer. Take EVERYTHING I say with a grain of salt.
- Excellent suggestion! (nt) - 1973shovel 07:36:25 07/03/09 (0)
RE: new speakers for a small room. - Dr RAC 14:25:26 07/02/09 (0)
Consider the JMR Duet as musetap suggests. I have heard them and they have an immediate quality and are considerably more open the Twins (I have a pair of Twin sigs. that were my baseline). I listened to the Duets on a Blue Circle rig (and it was a lot of fun!); thus, I’m not sure how they would sound with your system.
Mahalo!
RAC
My Small Room Experiences - Sibelius 13:51:58 07/02/09 (5)
Before my second little girl came along and commandeered it for her nursery I had a room not too much smaller than yours, about 10 X 11. I had the Reynaud Twin Mk II's and the Avalon Acoustic Symbols in that room. Amps were an old Wavelength Audio 300B integrated at about 8 watts and a Sonic Frontiers Power 1 at about 50 watts. The Symbols are rated at 87db and sounded good with the Power 1, but fabulous with the Wavelength. I didn't listen to the Twins much because I loved the clarity of the Avalons. They were the perfect speaker for my small room. I loved their clear open sound and the small footprint (8" X 9") made them easy to place. The Avalon sound isn't for everyone, but with tubes and vinyl they really sounded fabulous.

What I found in my small room was that I could get away with speakers with much lower sensitivity using low powered amps because in a small room, 90db is LOUD. You are only what, 8 feet at most from the speakers after allowing room behind them and some space for a seat of some sort. So, while I'm not recommending the Avalons to you, at $3500 they are a little outside your budget, I just wanted to share my experience that in a small room some amp/speaker pairings that don't look good on paper (Wavelength/Avalon) can really work in practice.

Most of my listening (classical, orchestral, a little jazz) was about 90db peaks, using the old Radio Shack meter, and that was plenty loud for me.

That amp sure looks nice and 30 watts of class A power in a small room will power any speaker you want. Be aware that higher sensitivity speakers may give you less freedom in attenuation in a small room before it gets really loud, so if your amp sounds better full throttle keep that in mind.

Caveat: My room, my gear, my ears.
- RE: My Small Room Experiences - soundquest 16:24:57 07/02/09 (4)
  Thank you everyone for the advice. I sure do appreciate it. The big problem I'm Having is that there are just to many choices and no realistic way to hear them all before I decide.
  
  I do like the Reynaud sound musetap, and the Trente was my dream speaker when I originally purchased the Twin's, it was just outside my budget at the time. The Duet might be a really good choice. The descriptions I've read sound as though they might have turned this speaker from a sleeper into a true giant.
  
  I also appreciate your comments sibelius about a speaker having to high a sensitivity as honestly, it's not something I had given a great deal of thought. I know specs cannot always tell the whole story and I dont really listen all that loud, but I do like to crank up some Meat Puppets or Funkadelic every now and then so I'm not sure if the lower sensitivity of the Spendor or Harbeth would be a major limiting factor. Possibly not.
  Furnishings and small room size do make a difference! But yes 90db in a small room is indeed quite loud! Maybe I should convince Jay at Audio Revelation to get a pair of NP2.0's for me to hear. I think the Symbol might be more money than I want to spend.
  
  I have a feeling that the Harbeth, although I'm sure quite amazing might be a little too small. As Jeffrey Catalano put it in a recent conversation the one big drawback with most small monitor's is that they sound like they have their cheeks clenched tight. Very true. Some small speakers don't have the ability to swell up and get big when the music demands. They sound as if they are constantly holding their breath.
  
  Thanks for the advice everyone and I'll keep you posted!
  
  BTW, not much mention of the Devore or Odeon. Has anyone heard these?
  - Good Luck - Sibelius 10:17:44 07/03/09 (1)
    I got lucky when I was auditioning speakers. My dealer carried Avalon, Quad, ProAc, Joseph Audio (another good slim floor stander) and at the time had a pair of Verity speakers. I'd heard JM Labs, Alon, Paradigm, PSB, Totem, B&W (which I was replacing). I finally found a sound I liked in Avalon (well, I REALLY liked the Quads, but no way I had the room for them), and one Saturday they had the just introduced Symbols in their listening room. As I said, perfect size, great sound.
    
    Even if you live in an area like I do where there are lots of dealers to sample from it's a really difficult task to audition speakers. Since I've lost my room and all my gear is packed in the closet I've moved to headphones, something I never thought I'd do. I'll tell you, they are much easier to audition; order from Amazon or Headroom, listen, decide, return, repeat until satisfied.
    
    My best advice would be to be patient and don't buy something until you find a speaker you really like, especially at the $ you are looking to spend.
    
    Best of luck.
    - RE: Good Luck - soundquest 17:47:21 07/03/09 (0)
      Good advice Sibelius. Sometimes instant gratification is a hard to resist. There are a lot of very nice speakers out there. The Quads are some of my favorites too.
  - RE: My Small Room Experiences - Bob Neill 19:16:00 07/02/09 (1)
    Since the subject of Reynauds has already been introduced here, I'm not sure whether this is outside the rules or not, but what I'd suggest, IF you decide to stick with JMR's, are Cantabile Signatures, rather than Duets. Duets are fine but based on what you say, you might find the Cantabs more suitable. They are a somewhat more refined version of a Trente in a floorstander. Very easy to drive. If they kill this post, post a question to inmate Budrew, who has these speakers and can give you an unbiased assessment.
    
    Edits: 07/02/09
    - RE: My Small Room Experiences - soundquest 19:50:39 07/02/09 (0)
      Thanks Bob. I will ask him.
Thiel coaxial monitors made in China / Totem Arro - keith_d 11:28:39 07/02/09 (0)
While these may not be quite as human as Reynauds have a reputation for being since they have a bit more definition, imo.

They both would roll off in a way that would work sort of well with your tiny, square room. In terms of their roll off they might do better close to the wall than a possibly wumpy British monitor of old.

The Totem might be a little inefficient, though. I also like the Devore idea.

BTW, not the Thile PCS. I mean the two way coxial boxes at $1k ea., but I have momentarily alzheimered on the model name....
A second on the Reynauds... - MMasztal 09:39:53 07/02/09 (0)
Fairly easy to drive and very musical.

Cogito Ergo Credo
RE: new speakers for a small room. - Nicholas Renter 08:29:36 07/02/09 (0)
Call Roy Johnson @ Green Mountain Audio and tell him what you're looking for.
- Green Mountain Audio (Open in New Window)
RE: new speakers for a small room. - Pro Sound Guy 06:49:40 07/02/09 (0)
Efficiency is the important for your choice because you run a low powered
tube amp

The Harbeth is only 82.5db/W/m
Devon Gibben is only 86db/W/m
A5 Spendor is only 85db/W/m

The Odeans are more in your ballpark on efficiency big time

The Rigoletto is 94.5db/W/m and thats right where you want to be
with your tube amp

Look for something in the plus 90db/W/m range
RE: new speakers for a small room. - musetap 22:21:09 07/01/09 (0)
Well, I was going to recommend JM Reynaud Trente, but they aren't on your lis and are no longer in production.
They do have more refinement, poise, and a sweeter (plus more extended) high end than the Twins ll, too. And the JMR magic sure is there.

I haven't heard the JMR Duet, but from what I've read, they may fit the bill.

Sorry if I've derailed your train of thought though, but... yet... something to consider since it seems you like the JMR "sound" and there's more than the Twins ll out there.

“ Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination. ” -Michael McClure

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