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I finally found time to visit the local dealer yesterday to listen to new Theil 3.7, their new flag ship speaker. Theil 6s and 7s have been discotinued as well as 3.6s (This is what I was told by the dealer). They had been in the store for about 3 months and had more than 300hrs on them.
This speaker has a newly designed midrange driver with the tweeter coincidently mounted at the center of the midrange driver. Tweeter can be removed (in case there are problems) without distrubing the midrange driver. From Theil specs,
Midrange: "The midrange driver's diaphragm is constructed with an entirely new shape that provides far greater stiffness than typical diaphragms, even those made from exotic materials. The diaphragm is shaped with corrugations that are oriented from the center outward (like spokes) and act a little like small I-beams to provide enormous strength in that direction. The large diameter voice coil attached to the diaphragm gives it strength in the other direction--around the circle. This design achieves such great stiffness that the diaphragm continues to vibrate perfectly, as one unit, all the way up to 20 kHz, usually considered the upper limit of human hearing.
Tweeter: The CS3.7 tweeter provides much lower distortion and higher output than any other tweeter we are aware of. This is accomplished in spite of a size small enough to mount coincidently with the midrange driver by a unique long gap motor system that uses a set of four radial and one axial neodymium magnets with a total weight six times that of a typical neodymium powered tweeter. In addition, the tweeter provides the complete absence of any coloration-producing diaphragm resonances in the audible range, a very wide operating bandwidth and very low power compression. The result is high frequencies of utter neutrality and effortless dynamics.
Crossover: The CS3.7 crossover is a true first order acoustic type that provides the utmost in spatial and depth imaging performance as well as overall realism. This is the only type of crossover that provides complete accuracy of amplitude, phase, time, and energy, and therefore the only type that does not distort the musical waveform. Proper application of this gradual-transition type of crossover requires the use of more expensive drivers with wider frequency ranges than are required for use with common quick-transition crossovers but the benefits also include improved uniformity of the speaker's output in all directions.
Bandwidth (-3 dB): 32 Hz - 35 kHz
Frequency response: 33 Hz - 26 kHz ±2 dB
Phase response: minimum ± 10°
Sensitivity (2.8v - 1m, true anechoic): 90 dB
Impedance: 4 ohm (2.8 ohm min)
Recommended power: 100 - 600 watts
Size (w x d x h): 12.5 x 21 x 45 in /32 x 53 x 114 cm
Weight: 91 lb 41.5 kg
Associated equipment for this listening test: Bryston amplifier (4B SST), preamp (BP-26?) and CD player (BCD-1). VTL TL2.5 line stage, TT-15S1 refernce series Turn Table.
My first impression of these speakers are they sounded very lean at the bottom. While 3.7s lower frequency does not go down as far as 3.6s, the differences are not subtle, but quite remarkable. The title track on One Night in Vienna by Schonherz and Scott has a drum in the middle of the soundstage that go very deep. On 3.6s, this track basically shake up my furniture in the listening room. However, that was not the case with 3.7s. Tracks 2 and 9 on 1492 Conquest of Paradise by Vangellis also have deep base. Again, 3.7s did not come into the neighborhood of 3.6s in these tracks as well.
Midrange magic of Theil continues with 3.7s. Soundstage depth, imaging,layering, tonal accuracy, etc., are top-notched and I cannot falter those in anyway. However, at the very top end, 3.7s sounded bit "darker" than 3.6s. Now I will be the first to complain about that darn vifa tweeter on 3.6s. On certain CDs, it can be outright irritating with first strings and crashing symbols. However, 3.6s at the top has lot more "air" and this aspect was somewhat diminished in 3.7s. Is this a good thing or a bad thing?
To answer this question I used listening results from 2 LPs by Shivkumar Sharma playing the santoor (Classical Melodies on the Santoor: Ragas Malkauns, Hansadhwani, and Mishra Khamaj, EMI; Shivkumar Plays Santoor with Alla Rakha on Tabla: Ragas Shankara and Jhinjhoti). Classical music stage arrangement in these recordings are fairly simple; santoor on right speaker and tabla on the left speaker. The santoor, unlike other string instruments is played with a pair of wooden hammers whose gentle strokes on the strings afford a vareity of delicate but lively tonal effects reminiscent of the piano or harp.
Again my first impression was that 3.6s reproduced the sound of santoor much better than 3.7s. There is lot more "air" underneath these passges and they sounded more "lively" and "sweeter" in 3.6s than 3.7s.
My next test was to subject 3.7s with jazz music. I had 2 LPs by Coleman Hawkins (At Ease with Coleman Hawkins, Soul) and several CDs including Astrud for Lovers by Astrud Gilberto. Reproduction of Saxaphone, piano, voice, etc., on 3.7s were absolutely stunning. They were reproduced as well as in 3.6s if not even better. The only issue I have is with the reproduction of the double-bass. The plucking of string on double-bass was not well defined and it seems to be lot "loose" than in 3.6s. I didn't hear the purrrring of the double-base on 3.7s as clearly as in 3.6s. This may yet again be attributed to the 3.7s lack of extension at the bottom-end.
One time I had Theil 2 2s (for about two years) and then upgraded to 3.6s for obvious reason of bottom-end extension and details. I haven't heard Theil 2.4s, but 3.7s may very well be an upgrade for those owners. However, I am not yet convinced that 3.7s will be a step forward for 3.6s owners.
What you are paying for is new driver technology and modern cabinet design. Like every other speaker, 3.7s are a compromise of sound and engineering. They are well-crafted and backed by a company with a good history and reputation. So I encourage you to listen to them. May be that lack of bottom-end extension is not important to you. May be shade of missing "air" at top end is what you are craving for to match with your gear. I must confess that on some tracks, I like that "darker" top. Becasue on 3.6s, they basically send you out of the room.
I am planing on another listening session with 3.7s in coming weeks. At that time, dealer promised to set up the speakers on the oppsite side of the room with better electronics. I also plan to take some more music that was "problamatic" for 3.6s and see if 3.7s can do full justice. So don't take my first impression as the final word on these otherwise remarkable speakers.
Priya
Follow Ups:
Pryia:
I believe we should take your review at face value and not question the electronics. The dealer must have judged the Bryson gear as acceptable, otherwise why use it.
I’ve had my CS 3.6s for 14 years now and am very much interested in knowing whether or not the 3.7 is better. A concern I have is midrange reproduction of challenging musical content; dense, complex musical passages at high recorded levels. Is the midrange ring on the 3.7 as good or better than midrange driver on the 3.6 for such “stressful” content?
I consider that capability one of the features that most distinguishes the 3.7 from other speakers. However, I am not familiar with the 3.6 or other Thiel models.
See my review at:
I am planning for another audition soon. Dealer ensured me that he will have "better" electronics driving 3.7s at that time. For mirange, I have two singers from my native country that I use for testing. Maestro Amaradeva and Nanda Malani. Amaradeva has a voice that is very near of a baritone and Ms. Nanda Malini is no saprano if you know what I mean. Her voice is more in the range of Ella Fitzgerald and Billi Holiday.
To this day, Theils and Vandys are the only speakers that reproduced their voices "accurately." When I say accurately, I have heard them sing without any amplifications or minimal amplification. So when I played their CDs, I was using my recollections to decide which speakers do the best possible recreation. So midrange of Theil 3.6s is a hands down winner of this contest with Vandys also getting it correct. On 3.7s, my initial imppression was that they indeeed reproduced their voices failry accurately. I did pay close attention, but I was bit distracted due to "other stuff" happening in the soundstage.
So let me test these again and report back to you. In the mean time, I think you too should listen to 3.7s. They are at least worth listening since they seems to match your tastes and features you want.
Priya
Try to listen with something other than Bryston gear if possible. Always found Bryston thin and hard.
What have you heard in the way of Bryston gear or are you merely basing your comments on hearsay?
No, I have heard 4bst, 3bst and length in my system and others, as a local dealer who sold it so several pepole I know have or had Bryston stuff. I,ve had ss amps from Muse, Audio Research, Rotel 1090, and have heard many others. Bryston stuff sounds to me thin and hard it suprised me because I heard good things not bad about their gear. Press always seems favorable to Bryston. I think it is not a good match with Theils at all. I own Theils
...is a bad match for Thiels.
Pass X series is much better.
The ST series is old technology. I have a 14BSST and a 6BSST and know people with the 9BSST and Thiel 2.4s (and I have 7.2s). There is no comparison with the old series and new one. I had the old 4BST on my 7.2s for a bit and it was OK but I sold it long ago.
I've heard the 3.7s with the BP26 and 4BSST and it sounded great. Plenty of bass. I have 7.2s now and I actually might sell them. Yes the bass is fuller in the 7.2s but the 3.7s aren't that bad and I have 2 Rel subs I already use with the 7.2s (crossed over at 22HZ now).
Regarding the 3.7 bass response, how is your room similar to the dealer demo room with respect to size, dimensions, and speaker placement relative to room boundaries? How is your room different? It would really be great if you could take the 3.7 to your listening environment (system and room).
Robert C. Lang
My dealer's room is compartively smaller than my listening room, that is the width and the lenght. I have very high ceiling too, but not as high as my dealers though. Yes, it would be a better comparison in my own listening room.
Priya
I was very interested to read your impressions of the CS 3.7. I am every bit as interested in your take on the CS 3.6. I just purchased a used pair of CS 3.6 on audiogon and will be picking them up next weekend. I am anticipating getting them home and giving them a listen, but I must say it is with mixed feelings. I heard the CS 2.4s and liked them, but I hear so much negative commentary about the high frequencies of the CS 3.6, that I am worried they will be too hot for me. I guess Thiels had/have a reputation for shrill, hot, aggressive top ends, but the CS 3.6 was supposed to be better than earlier Thiels in this regard. Nevertheless, every reviewer I read noted they will reveal everything in the top end of recordings and that that is not always pleasant.
I'd be interested in your or anyone else's thoughts on this issue. Of course, I will have to listen and judge for myself when I'm listening to them in my room.
What electronics have you tried for your CS 3.6s?
George
Competitors lable Theil speakers as harsh, bright, etc. It is very difficult to design speaker drivers for first-order crossover networks since one driver must well behave into the range of the adjacent driver. So the tweeters of Thiel speakers need to handlde "leakage" from the midrange. This can be somewhat problamatic.
If you pair your 3.6s with right gear, they should give you hours of pure entertainment. Mind you, recording quality has lot more to do with Theils sounding harsh/bright than anything else. Next are the elctronics. I have paired my 3.6s with Audio Research 100.2 with excellent results. In the past I have driven those with PS Audio 200CX also with very good results. I have heard these with tube gear with limited sound quality at the bottom, but extremly fogiving at the top.
Perhaps for you, a tube pre-amp and a SS amp can work very well. DOn't worry about 3.6s being too hot. They are one of the best speakers around and can compete with speakers that cost twice as much. Once you fall in love with tonal accuracy, imaging, soundstage, layering, etc., which are Theil trademarks, it won't be easy to turn your back.
Priya
Priya,
Thanks for the review. Do you know if your dealer had broken in the CS3.7? I heard that it takes up to 300 hours to break in. Just wondering if that would have anything to do with the thin bass and lack of top end air.
Thanks!
It so happens that I have ARC electronics--an SP-8 preamp and VT-100 Mk1 power amp both of which give me really good sound. I currently use them to drive a pair of PSB Stratus Golds and those electronics made them sound far better than anything else I have heard.
I'm really glad to hear that you had satisfactory results on your CS 3.6s with these tube electronics. I read so much about needing high current high powered amps for these Thiels, I assumed my ARCs would have to go.
The other thing I read a lot about is having a "big enough room". My room is about 14 x 22' and the speakers need to go along the 14 foot end, but I can get several feet behind them and off of the side walls. Ceilings are ca. 7 1/2 feet.
Have you experimented with any particular speaker cables with your Thiels? I have never gotten on the exotic speaker cable wagon, just use 12 gauge stranded copper. Any thoughts?
Thanks,
George
I have some CS3's that initially sounded harsh in the extreme. I tried out some Cardas Cross speaker cables and eventually traded up to some Golden Cross cables. The Cardas cables, and to lesser extent interconnects, went a long way to make the Thiels sound really good. My CD player, a Wadia, also shares some of Thiel's characteristics--revealing and a bit in your face. Power cords made a big difference here. On the amplifier and on the CD player, I found that Electraglides made a really big difference, though I've heard that the newer Epiphany X.3 cords are cheaply made and not in the same class as their predecessors.
The Thiels pretty much forced me to look into tweaks in order to make them listenable, but I've been able to tune in my system so that even poorly recorded discs now sound acceptable. It took a lot of experimenting to get my system where it is today, but the Thiels revealed all of the changes that I made quite clearly.
Any cable with teflon as the dielectric medium would do for you. I use a Kimber 8C speaker cables (I think they are about $300) and Wireworld Equinox interconects. I don't want to get into details why you shouldn't spend excessive amount of money on cables, but just take my word for it. I am an electrical engineer and that's all you need to know (LOL).
Priya
I was at first a non-believer and used simple lamp-cord for a long time until I bought the ARC VT200, LS25 and CD2. Everything changed when the dealer loaned me a pair of cables. When compared to my thick, thought to be decent, Monster cables, there was no comparison. I then tried to go cheaper by trying others and none could beat this set of cables. I hesitate to name them, forgive me.
If you are using very good front end such as those by ARC, it is worth looking for a very good set of interconnects and speaker cables to let all the music through. Especially those that can handle XLR ends. ARC gear sounds its best using XLR.
If you are fortunate enough to have a dealer willing to loan you cables from lower end to higher end, please take them home and run them through your ARC or other gear and then buy the ones that sound the best.
Happy Listening!
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