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I am building some monitor's for myself and was wondering if all factors being even for best detail what should I use between titanium dome or soft dome.They are crossoverless with a single cap on the tweeter for protection and a direct coupled 6.5" Vifa mid/woofer in a sealed enclosure.Any and all suggestions are greatly appreciated.
Far better to find the tweeter that best matches the midrange unit you choose, although experimentation could be time consuming especially if you have to keep creating new crossovers.
In your shoes I'd find a manufactured speaker I like and source the tweeter it uses, and in fact if I was making my own speaker I'd be inclined to source both drivers from a speaker I enjoy listening to (probably high-end and out of my price range) and design my own cabinet.
Most of the cost involved with high-end speakers is in the cabinet and general R&D; the drivers are usually very affordable with the benefit that the crossover has already been designed to match the drivers for that particular sized cabinet.
Make your own cabinet with a similar volume and you're almost guaranteed a successful project.
They can both sound wonderful. It all depends one which one and how it is implemented. You should be more concerned about doing a proper crossover network IMO. A woofer running full range and a tweeter with only a cap as a crossover will have a raggedy a-- frequency response and IM distortions that will be far more obnoxious than any differences between quality tweeters of different constructions.
It is a very subjective question. While some love Wilsons other's hate them.
my speakers cadence arita have titanium tweeters from vifa and they are amazingly implemented....no harshness at all !
For best detail, you are talking about a dome tweeter that goes tish, tish, tish? Invented to give John Q. Public highs all over the room in mass market speakers? No thanks... I may have to sit in the sweet spot but give me a true ribbon transducer tweeter like a Raven or similar 8 days a week. After all, you said you wanted detail. Compare the specs, end of story.
"Compare the specs, end of story. "
What is it about Raven and similar small ribbons you feel measure better than the best dome tweeters?
If I can find some time to do the homework for you I will. (don't hold your breath though) Otherwise dig around and compare a dome tweeter to the "true" ribbon transducer specs and see for yourself.
Done so and have not seen anything yet that convince me of ribbons being a superior alternative to the better domes.
One exception seems to be some longer ribbons having extremly low distortion. Thinking on Bo Bengtssons designs.
Well if you had "done so" then you would see why, clearly you haven't. It's rather obvious...With a moving mass many, many times less than that of high quality domes and the element acting as the both the diaphragm and the voice coil it offers instantaneous reproduction of the signal and exquisitely fast decay times. Sure the sweet spot is smaller but screw that who cares. I don't own speakers to please a group of people in my room. I own them to please me. When I want it to sound right the speed of a true transducer ribbon hits the mark. I have owned, heard all kinds of domes. None work as well to these ears as ribbons in the sweet spot. No contest...
I have not seen any proof of ribbon being a superior transducer than a dome.
Bandwith, decay, distortion characteristics is what makes a good or bad driver. Obviuosly this goes for domes as well as ribbons.
Please tell me which ribbons are superior in these regards compared to the best dome tweeters, Iīm seriously interested.
Different horses for different courses, or Panel proponents meet the cone and dome brigade. Actually what I am looking for is the honest bass of folded cornerhorn, the midrange purity of a Quad and super accurate Ion tweeter.........Like Detroit, everything is a compromise. One does see a marked amount of ribbon tweeters mated with cones and domes ie Levinson/Legacy/Martin Logan.......don't they?
Just because ribbons are used in overpriced american stuff does not mean they are superior... and that was the question. I donīt doubt that ther are places for ribbons, and I know there are good ribbons.
The thing I asked for was about specs on ribbons showing their superority as transducers. As far as I know there are no single parameter in ribbons that can not be matched or bettered by electrodynamicall designs.
sigh ...My ears are the final arbiter and although hearing has poor memory relative to sight I am reminded that much of our ignorance in this hobby has more to do with NOT knowing what to test for as opposed to a cornucopiea of #'s to buttress one's opinion.
"has more to do with NOT knowing what to test for as opposed to "
You got a point there and of course we should let our ears be the judge.
To get back on topic, the word "spec" was what made me ask what I did..
And I said, do a little homework... When I go looking, I see ribbon tweeter specs with a guaranteed flatness limit. Useful output detectable to beyond 50k Looking at quality domes like Vifa etc. one is lucky to get to 40k and that is on a good day. Then look at the moving mass gram weight. Domes are often 25 plus times more. Wonder which moves faster? Its all about the sound. Which reproduces a more realistic sound. Which makes the violin come to life or the cymbal sound like a cymbal should. The speed of a ribbon affords the most natural, realistic sound to my ears that's for sure! Just put in overpriced American speakers? Huh? LOL, believe what works for you I suppose. The ribbon tweeter cost much more than the dome to be sure. Compare the build and it's a no brainer. Compare the sound and that's a no brainer too. When you get the chance, find a quality speaker using a true ribbon transducer tweeter. Sit in the sweet spot, put on your favorite music and close your eyes. You'll never go back to a dome again...
You like ribbons, good!
Lets not mix that up with absolute performance and SPECIFICATIONS!
Which the discussion is about.. please remember that.
"Useful output detectable to beyond 50k Looking at quality domes like Vifa etc. one is lucky to get to 40k and that is on a good day"
If we discuss tecnologies, lets look at the best designs. There are numerous dynamicall (non ribbon) tweeters that extend to 40-100k. Do yor homework ;-) (ex. Focal, Accuton, Technics, Scan Speak).
"Then look at the moving mass gram weight. Domes are often 25 plus times more. "
The moving mass itself is totally not interesting. Lets look at what the combinations that goes into the design does in the end.
"Wonder which moves faster?"
"Fast" is totally irrelevant. Look at BW, the only interesting thing. You could argue that the transformer often used in ribbon designs limits the "fastness" of the design, which leads to a dome with 60k respons is "faster" than a ribbon with 30k.
"The ribbon tweeter cost much more than the dome to be sure."
Cost is absolutely irrelevant in itself when we talk about specs. That said I believe the most expensive tweeeter is the Accuton D30.
"Compare the build and it's a no brainer"
What has the "build" to do with it? Letīs stick to specifications and important parameters for a accurate transducer.
"When you get the chance, find a quality speaker using a true ribbon transducer tweeter. Sit in the sweet spot, put on your favorite music and close your eyes. You'll never go back to a dome again... "
I have listened to a couple of ribbons but not sure what makers those where. Very good but not the best Iīve heard (different set ups, different rooms). The best reproduction Iīve heard of high frequencies has been from the diamond tweeters. They extend higher than most ribbons and have lower distortion. On a budget, I would not be totally surprised if ribbons sometimes is the right choice but lets not mix that up with absolute performance from the respective technologies.
"Irrelevant"? hmmmm ok well, with that point of view one can't say much more now can they? Enjoy those domes zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
The driver that move the "fastest" (or maybe more correctly, accerlerate "fastest") for a given input signal is the driver with the highest sensitivity and the widest bandwith (HF extension).
For a given signal and driver, increase the motor strength and the driver becomes "faster". For high frequencies ultimately the drivers lowpass nature will be the limiting factor on how "fast" the driver moves due to the input signal.
Now, put a transformer before a driver and that will diminish the rise time of the driver, obviously reducing the BW at the same time.
So a driver with lower sensitivity will accelerate less than a driver with high sensitivity if the BW is the same and the input signal is the same. But this is no problem as long as the "slower" driver has low enough THD. You simply give the slower driver an amplified signal ofthe same typ as the high sensitivity driver receives, and VIOLA, the "speed" is the same.
So, a 0.1g dome of 90dB sensitivity and BW of 60k will be "faster" than a 0.005g ribbon with a limiting transformer and its BW of 30k.
This is simple physics, and your mental model of how things work is totally irrelevant.
Another factor on how "fast" the driver is, is about damping. IOW the moving element should not only accelerate fast to a input signal, but should also stop "fast" when the signal stops. The impulse respons and waterfall plot/CSD is the methods to make this visible. I have not seen any evidence on that ribbons is inherently better than domes in this regard. Mass is only relatively interesting since the damping affects this very much. Add mass and the driver gets underdamped with more ringing, add damping and things get back to normal.
The only thing that is interesting is BW, decay and distortion... well directivity and power respons also. "Fast" is something you need to use in context, not merely by itself. "Fastness" in this discussion is about force in relation to mass and damping in relation to mass.
If I did miss something here, please point it out, but I think I summed it up well.
If it was pointed out, likely it would be irrelevant. Been in to many of these conversations before. Anyone can justify anything and such can go on and on and on...My facts, your facts, their facts. I'm done... Enjoy your domes, but I'll take a true ribbon transducer tweeter 8 days a week!
Well I guess all of this rules out CD which has a brick wall at 20khz so extending beyond it is irrelevant - so are we talking SACD? The cheap new Quad silk dome supposedly has .1%distortion to 50khz usable.
No human can hear above 25khz and I bet almost everyone on this forum above the age of 30 won't hear above 16Khz and most probably not much above 13khz.
I am more interested in how the drivers match and how cohesive the sound is - and I would bet it would work best if the drivers were a close sonic match as possible. I don't hear it with metal tweeters and polypropolen midwoofers nor do i hear it with Electrostatic panels and woofers of ML and I don't get why it would work with a Ribbon and a kevlar or other woofer.
I suppose i would be interested in an ALL ribbon speaker like Quad does with the Stat panel - but I would want one that has impressive macrodynamics not just microdynamics and deep bass response to around 25hz and be able to play deep bass dynamically and loud.
Donīt know if this was directed to me or what your point was but..
I believe that the response itself above 20k may be of minor importance, but the drivers that has high extension typically has better performance in the audible range. Also there are this discussion of ultra fr. still affects what we perceive if it is played back with program material. There is evidence that this is the case as far as I understand.
Vinyl and SACD/DVD-A has higher extension than CD as we all know and there is a lot of us using this formats.
"The cheap new Quad silk dome supposedly has .1%distortion to 50khz usable."
You see, that is better than the Raven ribbons as far as specs go.
Matching drivers is wise I agree.
I have a bit of a question outside of ribbons but to panels like the MLs. Here is a speaker using an electrostatic panel - and all sorts of people claim the superiority of stats. But ML concedes that the panel can't do the job so they put a big woofer under the panel and call it a sub woofer but even the Prodigy is harldy producing terrific bass and dynamics. So that leaves me with Quad who bypasses the woofer and the gross integration problems and often bizzarre sound by simply not giving the customer any real bass.
I see a lot of Ribbon speakers and have heard only two - and Apogee way back and Legacy. Neither were particularly good loudspeakers. Both exhibitted a spitty treble response to a degree the Apogee was better as i recall. But the Legacy also uses mixed and matched driver technology - while the speakers were very expensive and while no doubt all the drivers were of top grade in the expensive department I just would not call whayt I heard a very enjoybale experience. The Ribbon seemed fast and extremely clear so I get the appeal - I think I was more put off by the integration with the I guess "slower midwoofer" The midrange through the top of the treble has to be coherent and it seems to me if the midrange lags behind the tweeter then the maker will have to creat a FIX to bring the midrange forward to catch up. All of this seems like fixing a bunch of errors.
Is there a good all Ribbon design - not impressed with Magnepan SMG from what little I have heard - I understand that Elac makes some good ones but not available here.
Above all, I strive to NOT practice
"Contempt prior to investigation"
I'm a big fan of the small neodymium textile dome tweeters. Mine are from Audax, but there is a similar design from Peerless and from Tang Band. They seem like a nice compromise between some of the almost too laid back silk domes and the grittier crisper sound of the mylar and titanium domes. THe Audax tweeter illustrated has an egg-shaped dome.
For my DIY I use JBL Titaniums either 035's 096's or 050's golds. All 1" metal domes. I like them but I have Infinity's with 1" silk domes I like just as much. They also have that ring tweeter form Focal??Fostex?? I would definately look into, the one Polk and several others use's has a phase plug. Built very much like the old JBL 075 driver without the horn.
Clearly a great part...requires some crossover ingenuity.
The ridgitity of the hard domes requires careful attention to your crossover and a lot of experimentation. Balancing and voicing your system with a hard dome should be done at the listening chair...as balancing with any crossover IMVHO.
Soft textile and silk domes are much more forgiving with crossovers but have a tendency to "break up" at lower frequencies and cause a smearing of the sound. If you are going to use a soft dome, I like to see them with an acoustic lens or waveguide attatched to get the pistonic benefit for lower frequencies and give a good behavioural response due to increased sensitivity.
If you have the patience to adjust and try many different crossover schemes (give yourself months not days) you can really do best with a hard dome. The crossover can eleiminate any ringing..and I prefer a series crossover with a hard dome actually.
Sounds like you are building an epos like speaker. I have a metal dome in my MF MC2 and soft dome T27 in my Kef 104ab. They certainly image differently and I think it boils down to your personal preferences.
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