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In Reply to: RE: Its called " Listening with correct ABSOLUTE PHASE " posted by drlowmu on November 13, 2015 at 19:04:51
That is, all drivers are wired the same way (+ to +, - to -) and have minimal or no crossovers. JA checks for this in Stereophile's speaker tests. I used speakers that were polarity-coherent (Gallo Reference 3) for quite a while, and a polarity (phase) switch was essential. That was a big reason why I got my Aesthetix Calypso linestage. Pretty much everyone could hear that a record/CD/tape was being played in the "wrong" polarity. Now (different speakers) I can't tell the difference. Trust me, it's a blessing.
Follow Ups:
maybe you like the phase backwards?
cheers,
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
There's a sense of openness and clarity that tells you you're listening in the correct polarity (normal or inverted). And once you hear it, you look into the subject, read what others have said about it, and see if your experience regarding specific record labels matches what others have said and written. As in, for example, DG and Riverside are almost always in inverted polarity, Columbia and Prestige almost always in normal.
(I'm using "normal" here when you frequently see "non-inverted," which I always thought sounded dumb.)
No offense, but I gather you have never heard the difference.
And for the life of me I don't understand why this thread is here in the SET asylum. For what it's worth, the normal/inverted difference always sounded more pronounced to me when listening to reel to reel tape than with CDs and Vinyl. But SET???
"It's easy, IF your speakers meet certain requirements"
Well, logic would seem to suggest that, as I remarked in my probably overlong earlier response, the type of speakers that would seem likely to make the effect more pronounced would be speakers that themselves generate a lot of asymmetric (especially second-harmonic) distortion. (Most speakers, I understand, are likely to be among the biggest sources of distortion in any audio setup.)
For the same reason, logic would seem to suggest that the effect would be more pronounced when listening with an amplifier with substantial asymmetric (especially second-harmonic) distortion. Thus, SET amplifiers would seem to be prime candidates for that.
"And for the life of me I don't understand why this thread is here in the SET asylum."
Well, the thread started out as an SET discussion, and then, as threads often do, it morphed a bit...
Chris
I re-read the OP's post and your responses and do understand why the thread evolved as it did. I have to say I've never hear the dramatic changes the OP says he did and agree with your responses.
Polarity discussions do tend to bring out some pretty weird stuff :-)
Dave,
I spent a fair amount of time with my system and absolute polarity. I can hear differences (somtimes virtually non existent and sometime fairly noticable) depending on the material. I certainly hear differences when I switch speaker connections, I also hear differences (although I think smaller) when I switch polarity at my DAC (which I can do from my chair with a remote).
But although I hear differences, I just do not listen to music that way (listen and the switch and then relisten). So I simply decided to insure that my system was correct throught the chain and leave it at that. My phono stage inverts so I inverted polarity at the cartridge. So digital and phono are correct to my preamp. My single stage 1626 preamp inverts and my 2 stage monoblocks do not invert so I inverted speaker cables at the speaker. My 2 way horn speakers have both drivers in the same polarity and a positive DC signal on the + terminal moves the woofer cone outward.
So I beleive my audio chain preserves the polarity from source to speaker (ignoring phase shift from 2nd order woofer xover, horn driver uses 1st order). Recordings that are not in correct absolute phase or were phase is different for different instruments/performers will not sound as good as they could if the recording engineeres had been more careful but I don't generally have the time to worry about this. Some recordings are not that great for a lot of reasons including phase, but I still enjoy listening to them.
Pete, my current speakers are NOT polarity coherent, so I'm off the polarity treadmill, for which a fervent "Thank heaven" :-)
Now, whenever I switch the remote from "normal" to "inverted," neither I nor any friends (so far at least) can tell a speck of difference.
Which is not to say that you couldn't.
I can easily hear the difference resulting from speaker cable switch but not as clearly from the DAC switch. This is what I hear generally: in one orientation the sound stage is bigger, more open and the bass seems a bit "better", in the other orientation everything shrinks down very slightly, the mid range and bass become less full sounding (music is a bit washed out).
This is without a doubt the analysis/comparison that very quickly drives me nuts. Switching from the speakers is clearly audible but takes too much time to do regularly and the DAC phase switch is subtle so I usually don't bother because in general I like and enjoy the sound I hear in my system. One way sounds better on a one song and vice versa on another song, sometimes I hear a difference that seems worth it and sometimes not. I listen to probably around 5-25 hours of music a week in my system, comparing phase would probably reduce this to 1-5 hours a week!:)
My switch is on the line stage remote (Aesthetix Calypso). Polarity changes came in loud and clear using that remote and I confess I never compared the audibility of changes via speaker switching after getting the Calypso.
Your description of listening via the correct polarity matches my recollections. I'm not sorry I have lost the ability to discern it, though :-)
You probably can still hear it in the right setup? Perhaps your new speakers are not as phase coherent as the Gallos? What speakers did you switch too?
You may remember those old Gallo Ultimates -- the giant ones with four "bassballs" per side, sitting in open racks -- that were standing in the corners for 10 years while I played with the latest and greatest Gallos. Big mistake. The Ultimates, among Anthony Gallo's first series speakers back in 1996, just blew away the newer ones when I got around to comparing them.
But the wiring between the 12-inch bassballs goes from plus to minus at one point, effectively obliterating phase/polarity distinctions. At least for me.
I just wanted to say my monster fulton p12 speakers are very sensitive to absolute phase (we are talking about ac here) from the cartridge to the speaker connections
its like the music gets trapped in the speaker... with minimal lower frequency(bass) out of absolute phase
Lawrence
human perception is for me end all be all....look if we cannot hear the difference between a table top radio and our hifi..we/you should give it up ya?
when it sounds right to the human ear it is right!
"its like the music gets trapped in the speaker... with minimal lower frequency(bass) out of absolute phase"Just out of curiosity, how do you know which of the choices is "in absolute phase," and which is "out of absolute phase"? You are reporting that one choice sounds nicer than the other, but how do you know that it is the "in absolute phase" choice that sounds nicer?
Chris
Edits: 11/25/15
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Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Thanks, Tre, for posting; that's an interesting, and nicely written article you gave the link to. Of course the debate over whether absolute polarity is audible or not continues.It seems to me now that it is in principle plausible that absolute polarity could be audible, since musical instruments can have +/- asymmetric waveforms, and since the human ear presumably must have some degree of +/- asymmetry in its response to pressure peaks and troughs.
What is not clear to me, though, is whether the effects that people report hearing are actually due to the +/- asymmetry of the ear's response, or whether instead the reported effects are due to +/- asymmetries in other parts of the audio chain; the most likely other candidates being the loudspeakers and the amplifiers.
Any of the obvious experiments one could think of performing, such as switching the polarity of the speaker wires, or switching the polarity of the audio signal going into the amplifier, might in fact be doing nothing more than revealing that the loudspeakers distort asymmetrically, or that the amplifier distorts asymmetrically, or both. And even if the sound is nicer for one polarity choice than for the other, does this necessarily mean that that choice is the "correct" one that corresponds to preserving the absolute polarity of the original sound source? Or might it happen that the nice sound happens to coincide with a "wrong" absolute polarity?
If one wanted to establish that there was a genuinely audible effect due to the +/- asymmetry of the ear's response, one would have to find a way of eliminating all the other possible confounding factors associated the the asymmetries of the other components in the chain. I doubt that the typical reported listening tests have really nailed this question. Maybe people are just hearing the effects due loudspeaker or amplifier distortions. Or maybe they really are hearing genuine ear-dependent polarity effects. Who knows?
Chris
Edits: 11/25/15 11/25/15 11/25/15 11/25/15
I agree with your analysis.
The subject, as a whole, remains unresolved.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
I think your first sentence, and your understanding about polarity and about "polarity coherence" is incorrect, except, perhaps for ALL first-order crossovers.Others will chime in.
And we STILL have the problem of a certain percentage of the music SOURCEs we listen to being out of absolute. Its NO blessing if your speaker system can't differentiate this.
Jeff Medwin
Edits: 11/19/15 11/19/15
Let me say this. And hope that Clark Johnsen, author of "The Wood Effect," chimes in, since Clark wrote the book (literally) on the subject.For years and years I listened in vain to detect polarity changes. There are a number of tests on the "Chesky Jazz Sampler & Audiophile Test Compact Disc," including one where a piece of music is played and the polarity shifts midway. I could never hear the shift. Suddenly, listening to the test via my then-new Gallo Reference 3 speakers, the shift was clear as day. I wrote Gallo and a VP confirmed what I said here and that the Reference 3s were "especially sensitive to polarity." That's for sure. I came to know that while many discs/tapes were in mixed polarity (no consistency during the recording process) many others were easy to spot. Deutsche Grammophon products, for example were invariably recorded in inverted polarity.
I wore out a pair of speaker connectors making changes to hear the "right" way. Then, as noted, I got a linestage that allowed polarity changes via the remote.
Now I've lost it, and lost the polarity coherence that made it possible. I don't honestly miss it because it tended to interfere with my enjoyment of the music. One audiobuddy with a phenomenal music system who steadfastly refused to pay attention to polarity after hearing the shifts on my own system put it succinctly, "Who needs it?"
I gather that you do :-)
EDIT: IIRC, The Gallo Reference 3 had NO crossover between mids and highs and only a single capacitor between mids and woofer. And the wiring among all drivers assured that they were polarity-coherent.
Edits: 11/19/15
I could hear it easily, first with my Audiostatics and then later with my Acoustats. THen i heard it with my Reference 3as. Now, I hear it again with my Odeons. I have a thing for time coherent speakers it seems...
I appreciate your explanation.I had seven-way Fulton P-12 Premiere speakers for many years, and with that, and, almost any good speaker system, "I" am always wanting to hear it with the source played back correctly in absolute phase, when doing my serious listening.
Just (three weeks ago) I spent part of a night - and showed a Kansas City audiophile, ( with a full-blown ALTEC A-4 system set up in his huge listening space 45' by 25' by 14' ), the difference between in and out of absolute, and HE is now on the bandwagon to hear everything optimally.
One size does not fit all. Do as you WISH !! I am glad you are happy. I will do what makes me happy. Regards and my best wishes to you.
Jeff Medwin
Edits: 11/20/15
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