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In Reply to: RE: NO, posted by cpotl on August 20, 2015 at 07:56:06
Science always lag behind experience.
Science eventually comes up with
a way to quantify what we hear.
To discount, out of hand, experience
because science hasn't caught up yet
is just foolishness or ignorance.
I don't count Tweakers Asylum because
they are too willing to find magic beans.
They are the other extreme from your ilk.
I refer more to the Cable Asylum and
their cable cookers and cryo treatments.
They trust what the hear and don't worry
about science to prove what they hear.
Science will eventually catch up.
"If an audio component really does sound bad and
you can't find something to measure that will explain it,
you are probably measuring the wrong thing."
DanL
Follow Ups:
"I don't count Tweakers Asylum because
they are too willing to find magic beans.
They are the other extreme from your ilk.
I refer more to the Cable Asylum and
their cable cookers and cryo treatments.
They trust what the hear and don't worry
about science to prove what they hear.
Science will eventually catch up."
Well, there is the problem; it is all a matter of degree, and where one draws the line. For you, magic beans are one side and cooked cables are the other side. For someone else, the dividing line comes somewhere else.
My view, since I cannot personally hear any of these alleged effects, is to use a common-sense application of understood scientific principles, and to be skeptical of claimed effects that don't accord with those principles until such time as they can be proven to occur. The proof could consist of electrical measurements that demonstrated that the alleged effect did in fact lie above the threshold of hearing. Note that I am not saying that one could necessarily predict from the measurements exactly what change the listener would "hear." But I would say that since one could easily measure electrical signals at the nanovolt level, and so on, it would be easy enough to estimate whether any measured changes could conceivably be audible to the human ear or not.
Or alternatively, the proof could consist of rigorously-conducted double-blind tests that established that there did indeed exist people who could reliably discriminate between the before break-in and the after break-in sounds. Just having people who know what they are listening to report that the sound has changed doesn't really cut the mustard. If one accepted such anecdotal reports as evidence, then one would have to accept what the magic-bean tweakers reported also.
Chris
So since you cannot hear a difference
therefore there must not be one.
Better to believe you are not
missing out on something than
to give credence to those that do.
Interesting
DanL
"So since you cannot hear a difference
therefore there must not be one.
Better to believe you are not
missing out on something than
to give credence to those that do.
Interesting
DanL"
But the magic-bean tweaker would use exactly the same argument against you.
Chris
You have stated that you have hearing loss.
I still hear above 20KHz - Big Difference.
DanL
Your membership profile says you were 51 in 2009.I know audiologists have different measurement scales than we use in electronics but I have to ask how far down in db or the sister audiologist scale is that 20khz?
I crudely tested my hearing a few months ago with an oscillator and it is gone around 14khz. I am 55 years old and from what I have read, 14khz is considered good at that age. Again this was hardly an official calibrated hearing test.
I'm not doubting you, but if you have flat hearing to 20khz at your age, you are part of a very small group based on standard hearing vs age scales.
Edits: 08/20/15
I am also very sensitive to peaks.
I still can't handle metal domes.
Their HF resonance gives me headaches.
DanL
"Their HF resonance gives me headaches."
Me too and I only hear to 14kHz.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
"You have stated that you have hearing loss.
I still hear above 20KHz - Big Difference."
Well, if you could demonstrate in properly-conducted double-blind listening tests that you were able reliably to discriminate between the sound of a newly-soldered joint and a joint that had "broken in," then I would be happy to concede the point. I would be willing to bet that you would not succeed, though.
Chris
Haven't you heard the latest audiophile theory against DBT's.Such testing is believed to be too stressful on the subject. The intense pressure due to the risk of being proven wrong creates an anxiety to where the subject can no longer focus on the subtle differences and thus hears no difference.
And the key word there is "subtle"!
When these outlandish claims are first presented, the reports are always "huge, ground breaking, night & day, my IPOD listening spouse even heard the difference".
But when pushed for measurements or DBT's, these "huge" differences suddenly become to small to measure or detect by controlled testing.
There is just no end to the BS and probably never will be.
Edits: 08/20/15
More or less since these audiophile cable claims started.How much longer do we have to wait for science to catch up?
I guess you do acknowledge that standard measurements fail to reveal any audio related differences between you cables and solder joints?
Edits: 08/20/15
How long did it take for science to measure
THD, IMD and difference between harmonics?
How long did it take science to discover
that the world isn't flat?
That the Earth is not the center of the universe?
These take as much time (and therefore money) as
there is interest in the discovery of the truth.
There is always a majority that does not
want to see the truth, let alone prove it.
They want to live with their dogma.
DanL
Various IC's etc. sound different to me and I don't know or want to know why. That said, I don't spend a lot of $$ on it.
That is a whole different can of worms.
I have been down there on the asylum too
and I don't want to start again. 8^D
DanL
"There is always a majority that does not
want to see the truth, let alone prove it.
They want to live with their dogma."And there you go! The truth is that the formal electronics industry does not support your claims. There is absolutely no credible evidence wire and solder joints have a "sound signature".
You are the one who won't accept the truth and are sticking to dogma!
What professional journals do you read to keep up with where electronics measurement technology is at?
And before you say "Stereophile", anything you can buy at a supermarket magazine rack ain't no technical journal!
Edits: 08/20/15
"The truth is that the formal electronics industry does not support your claims. There is absolutely no credible evidence wire and solder joints have a "sound signature"."
You keep saying this but who else except the audio industry is trying to hear it?? Not the aerospace industry, not the car industry, not the oscilloscope industry or GPS industry...take you pick. The truth is they don't know or care because they are not trying to listen to the sounds of things. So you are putting a big strawman up and keep knocking it down but it is IRRELEVANT!
Who says that audio electronics are not part of the "formal" electronics industry? You? Just because the circuits outwardly lack the sophistication of a missile guidance system you are missing just how subtle they have to be to not damage the precious signal because human perception is so sharp for some kinds of distortions.
"You are the one who won't accept the truth and are sticking to dogma!"
No that would be you, sorry. This whole "The formal electronics industry" schtick is evidence enough. Nevermind that the subtler points of audio design are simply not taught in engineering school because they are not "Formal" enough.
"What professional journals do you read to keep up with where electronics measurement technology is at?"
What kind of professional, unamplified concerts do you attend to sharpen your listening skills?
I have in my lab a LeCroy 12bit scope with 2G/S. It has FFT functions among a myriad of other things. I have used 100K HP network analyzers to measure return losses on coax cables in high voltage systems with signals in the hundreds of MHz. i think for audio the tools are probably good enough but the ANALYSIS of that data is what is lacking and the correlation with listening. Humans should be the standard and the measurements used to support what we hear and that correlation used to make better SOUNDING (not necessarily measuring) gear.
WRONG !!!
Truth is TRUTH
No matter where found or from whom
TRUTH is an absolute
If not absolute then it is not TRUTH
Science nor anyone owns truth
Science has been wrong many many times
Each time they had a "logical" stand
Science is blind leading the blind
Sometimes they eventually get it right
Mostly they have bad guesses
that they proclaim as truth
DanL
.
.
Infamous sockpuppet
Never did it and never will.
DanL
single malt scotch?
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Actually I stopped drinking 35 years ago.
DanL
"single malt scotch?"
"Actually I stopped drinking 35 years ago."
Maybe that's my problem! But all things considered, if it comes to a choice between the single malt scotch or being able to hear the breaking-in of solder joints, I'll settle for the single malt!!!
Chris
Except that nobody in the professional electronics industry represented by the IEEE is practicing what you say, not even showing any remote interest.
More of what they are not doing
rather than what they are doing.
No interest is the thing.
No interest in finding a way.
No interest in spending the money.
DanL
Possibly because they're all old and can't hear well like a teenager can when I first got into audio. What financial gain is there if many people cannot hear it or appreciate the difference. Hence the proliferation of solid state, digital, MP3, etc.I will say it again, don't let someone older than you tell you what you can't hear.
Edits: 08/20/15
What would we gain from this?
There are many more things that need attention, things that actually have tangible effects.
Heck I would even give Drlowmu some potential credit with his wild bypassing escapades, but this is out there.
Much bigger effects come from Placebo or Sensory Adaptation.
Slight variations in the way we hear at a given point of time depending on the environmental conditions leading up to that point in time.
Other senses we have that also adapt, are things like touch and smell.
That is why you are able to slowly slip into a hot bath, or why the presence of perfume seems to fade over time.
So in summary, swapping a part like an output transformer could quite possibly sound like it's breaking in, but only if the design parameters are substantially different enough, which they usually are when somebody is "upgrading". (Or changing some other part that is measurably and significantly different.)
However, you can't really account for that, quite often you have to make your selection based off of parameters ahead of time and fingers crossed benefit from the selection after purchase.
Infamous sockpuppet
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