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In Reply to: RE: Who thinks SS systems are generally more "truthful" than SET systems posted by Frihed89 on March 30, 2015 at 12:57:31
Frihed89 ,
Most all SETs I ever hear and / or see, schematically, are TUNERS, not amps !!! Damn few are truthful to the input.
Its hard to do either well, but like you, I prefer SE.
Jeff Medwin
Follow Ups:
While I would agree that they are not absolutely truthful to the input, as far as human listening goes they are RELATIVELY more truthful than nearly all SS amps in my experience. I say nearly because I have yet to hear the First Watt SIT amps or the new Pass XA30.8 that Jack Roberts (A SET fanatic of a reviewer) raves about now.
As ever, the scope says one thing and the ears tell a different story most of the time.
Of course most SETs do some unfavorable things like using inappropriate output transformers or constrictive power supplies that hamper their realism but the best ones are relatively closer to what I hear live and when I make my own recordings.
SS amps only begin to approach this realism and push pull tube amps seem to fall short on overall coherence although again the best ones seem far more realistic to me than any of the SS amps I have heard.
A friend brought over a SIT amp and tried it against my PSE 4P1L amp, and damn it was good. Best solid state amp I've ever heard. Massive heatsinks, all class A single ended.
they are great, but 10W isn't enough for most speakers. which he did a P-SIT version.
I would think it is definitely worth a listen to. A single active element is a dream in many ways.
Here is what I am using now: http://www.nataudio.ch/cms/index.php?page=symbiosis-se-single-ended-integrated-amplifie
It is not as simple as the SIT, but the output stage is (only a single bit industrial MOSFET per channel on the output). It is a true integrated with input and driver tubes.
.
Geez Jeff , if you'd only use little more truthful speakers that those console sorry arse Altecs 604 to judge the amps your opinion would carry little more weight ..
For the record, I don't own or even use 604s, and have not had a pair in my home since I was a child. I am talking about ALL my collective SE listening experiences, at RMAF shows, friend's homes, dealer's showrooms, etc.
Speakers are NOT the problem, the biggest TURKEYS ( gobble gobble ) in audio is the amps!! What a sorry lot they are.
Where you and I may possibly differ, experience wise, is, I HAVE heard good SE amps on 604s.
Cheers,
Jeff Medwin
Jeff
You're right that I've never heard truly great system..Kind of sad since I'm into hi-fi more than 25 years . I hope I'll experience it before I expire. The nice one would be Pakprotector's basement blaster system on rock/folk material , almost life like , and yes directly heated PP amps and horns with "corrupted " PSU ;). Not so great on symphonic/classical unfortunately . I don't believe anymore you can have it all , its either or... . .Most systems I heard in dealers , RMaf's and other audio shows , homes were working class level irrespective of price $2k or $200k .Some of them better some just bombastic junk, some passable. The only constant impression would be that Audio Note UK makes best life style systems available.
I do not believe great 2W 2A3 amp is an answer. Not even with best horn system one can imagine...
All the best , W
That PS is indeed corrupted. Corrupted by as-close-to-DC loading as it is possible to deliver. Thank power-limited PP Class A.
BTW, you should try the system now...3-way active, 2 of the 3 bands done with DH pentodes...the bass I still leave to the W6m. Coming soon, 16' de-comb'd sub-woofers...:)
cheers,
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
I seem to recall thinking a real helicopter was in the room when I visited Douglas.
The Living Voice Vox Olympian/Elyssian + Kondo made a believer out of me! That was one hell of a convincing system...I haven't heard anything better...yet.
It was laughably better than all other systems at the Munich show last year and far better than I have ever heard anywhere else too.
I am partial the 45 because i think it is slightly more accurate sounding, but still retains the magic of SET. Fortunately, or not, that amp can also play 2A3s and I have a pair of AVVT meshplates. I also have an "inexpensive" (in AN terms) 300B power amp with dual C-Core OPTs that i am also starting to enjoy a lot for its mid-range on baritone vocals and a lot of chamber music.
Observe, before you think. Think before you open your yap. Act on the basis of experience.
~!
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.
We can agree to disagree . I think you are WAYYY off !! What if it was headphones ?
Cheers and have fun,
Jeff Medwin
I suppose everyone's idea of "truthful" differs. If you mean in terms of naturalness, I abandoned SS and then PP tubes for SET. Of the three it was the most realistic sounding and the more involving listening experience. I'd expect answers to be all over the map given the unavoidable subjective nature. Tone,timbre, harmonic overtones, presence, believability etc. SET does it better IMHO.
For me the biggest surprise was that not too long ago I went back from SET and got a nice PP Class A triode amp (VAC 30/30). It sounded great, deep tuneful bass, holographic mids, extended but delicate highs...
Except it was somehow lacking the top to bottom coherence and flow I get from my SETs. Difficult to explain but it was almost like I could hear the handoff between tubes. I had a much stronger effect in the past with a pair of OTL monoblocks. There the transparency was unsurpassed BUT things didn't quite gel together like when you listen live. SET gets closer to this (good SETs at least).
After living with SETs for the last 10 years I can really hear what is different even with great PP amps and I have to say that the coherence has me hooked above all else (the tone of the VAC is wonderful so it is not that).
I always thought coherence had more to do with speakers. For example, the more drivers, the easier it may be to get the bass, the mids and the highs to sound very good, but bringing them all together and getting a wide 3-D soundstage is much, much harder.
This is one reason that, for all its limitations, the LS3/5A sounds so good to me with 300B SET amplifiers, of which I have owned two by Audio Note (UK).
Observe, before you think. Think before you open your yap. Act on the basis of experience.
I have found that it has almost as much to do with the amps.
I once demoed a pair of speakers from Sonics (Allegria) that had three modules each with a different kind of driver (metal cone driver, SEas magnessium mid and ribbon tweeter) at a guys place (not in a shop). I had brought with me a KR Audio VA350i and the guy had a Gamut preamp and Gamut amplifier (D200 something or other). With his amp combo, the sound was not coherent and each driver was clearly heard doing its own thing in it's own bubble. I found this disconcerting and difficult to listen to.
After a while we put on the KR Audio and suddenly it was like someone took out a welding torch and welded those drivers together into a whole sounding speaker. It was not a subtle effect. I realized that there was a pretty good speaker there dying to get out that was simply not realized with the Gamut amps. It was one of the most striking examples but I have heard it more subtly many other times.
I always think amps are the weakest and sorriest lot in all of the audio chain, from my experiences.
Jeff Medwin
I have come to see them as a clear weak link as well; however, one must never forget that for a turntable to generate sound one must have some kind of preamplifier stage + equalization to get a usable sound and a cd player or DAC must have an analog preamplifier on the end to get a usable sound as well. In this sense the source is just as important.
I have found a world class phonostage and will stick with it probably until I die...it just makes all analog sound...better than other phonostages I have tried and/or heard.
As for DACs, I have two I really like and one has been modded by a Lampizator tube output stage but has what I think is the best DAC modules ever put out for OEM use (UltraAnalog 20 bit modules).
One of the most lasting impressions I ever got was when I heard a pair of Odeon Nr. 32 speakers (great stuff) driven by an all Einstein all tube system (they also have hybrids which are not as good). It was scary real with the best recordings and easily the best sound at that show.
The next year was the same system...except the speakers, which this time were Living Voice OBX-R2s. The sound...was exceptionally good again and best sound at the show. It was not QUITE as good as with the Odeons (those speakers are really pretty awesome) but considering how conventional the LVs are for the most part it was a real lesson in the source, preamp and amp importance to me.
nt
Observe, before you think. Think before you open your yap. Act on the basis of experience.
I would put the speakers (drivers rather )in equal position. Some of them simply have that tonal color (or coloration/distortion pattern) which gives the glimpse of life event. Also FM tuners do something they possibly can't have any right to do with their telephone bandwidth and noises.
This may sound contradictory but although I firmly believe that SET are superior audio devices , these days I find fairly cheap , decent SS amps are better for casual listening, less demanding , picky & capricious.
It's probably a mental shift of mine but with SET amp playing I usually marvel about the sound properties , the beauty of notes and soundscape, and the music itself , composers intentions , meanings and the emotions it supposed to convey are kind of lost. Instead, I wonder if tube X or Y or DC couple with LSlSEE squared will inject even more of that beauty and life-likeness into the sound.
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