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In Reply to: RE: I just have to point out one more thing posted by kyle on December 17, 2014 at 07:56:34
"They don't indicate the voltage required for 600 watt output. "But they do. The gain of the amplifier is either 23db or 29db and that tells us what we need to know.
Using the 29db setting 1 volt input gives 28 volts across 8 ohms at the output. That's 100 watts.
At the 23db setting 2 volts input gives 28 volts at the output.
At the 23db setting it will take 4.8 volts input to get 69 volts out. 69 volts across 8 ohms is 600 watts.
At the 29db setting it would take 2.4 volts input to get 69 volts output.
Kirchoff's law, power = current times voltage and the online calculator linked below.
What bothered me is that Dennis stated,
"Jamie, the CORRECT gain structure for any modern amp, regardless of whether push/pull or single-ended, regardless of whether 2, 3, or 4-stages-- the CORRECT gain structure for all of these amps is NOW 18-20 DB of amplification.
More or less than this IDEAL FIGURE will result in an INFERIOR amplifier if you intend to work with today's line-level music sources.
The gain structure of a 2-stage S.E., using D.C. coupling, driven by a triode with an amp-factor of 100, driven into a 2A3 or 45, falls within THIS IDEAL 18-to-20 DB range. Changing the amp's overall gain structure to use the amp as a volume control is WRONG."
as if this is some kind of axiom or universal truth.
He later softened that to "We all have different reasons for the gain structures in our amps. With me, it's the idea of having a source component that puts out 3 to 7 volts drive right into a passive attenuator into an amp that has 18-20 DB gain structure."
So I guess he was over-stating his point the first time and realized it.
The bottom line, there is no rule and Dennis knows it.
Dennis just wants his preferences to be seen as the only proper way of doing things.
I think Dennis is a bit of a megalomaniac.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 12/17/14Follow Ups:
I agree that there's no rule, that's obvious.What you don't understand is the huge performance gains that result when you idealize any set of parameters-- taking each item, and in turn, idealizing it while considering and idealizing all the other factors that are present and interact with each other.
I do that routinely, you are degrading the attention required and the science involved. Apparently just because you don't like it, or wish to attack the messenger..
Name-calling does nothing to improve the performance of equipment. .
Whether there are rules for the things I describe or not, is---- completely irrelevant to our discussion.
What is relevant and obvious to me is that if ANY amplifier, at ANY power output level is operating in the 18-20 db gain structure range, if all other factors are made whole for that gain structure, and if the system is set up to accommodate an amplifier that has that gain structure, the performance of that system will not need any explanation from me or from you-- it's improved performance will be very obvious.
This factor has proven to me to be so great an improvement in ANY system, that I now try to use amplifiers that have that gain structure exclusively-- when I can-- where the requirements are for the best possible performance that one can get from that audio system.
One can build ANY wattage amplifier to the 18-20 db gain structure if he so chooses to do so, and successfully set up an audio system to use that structure to sonic advantage.
We all have to live with things that we can buy-- including amplifiers and source components. What I described is an ideal-- one of many factors involved in getting THE BEST performance. I didn't say you couldn't use something else.
You can use anything you want-- just don't attack every improvement that comes along because it doesn't match up with your preconceived ideas and only the science and herd-mentality notions that YOU know.
ALL Science and ALL rules were-- at one time-- unproven. They were somebody's UNPROVEN ideas that later were proven by superior performance, not by agreement among engineers and scientists at that time.
What you THINK you know CHANGES with time. It ALWAYS changes. You can learn how to use something superior, or you can half-heartedly "try" it, and fail, and then conclude that it is "bogus".
The problem with your approach is what do you do when IT WORKS for others and is, therefore, NOT bogus?
You have two choices: (1) You can THINK and see how and why it works, or (2) you can denounce both the idea and its messenger.
I think that History makes it obvious which approach really gets results.
---Dennis---
Edits: 12/18/14 12/18/14
"One can build ANY wattage amplifier to the 18-20 db gain structure if he so chooses to do so, and successfully set up an audio system to use that structure to sonic advantage."So if a person has a situation where 1000 watts on peaks are needed and he uses an amplifier with 19db of gain, where will he get the 10 volts of input signal needed for that amplifier to produce 1000 watts?
I know of no source components that outputs 10 volts. So now, because of your rule, that person will need an active line stage preamp.
So now it can be said that Dennis clearly states that adding an active line stage preamp is a sonic advantage?
I know you don't believe that.
I think what a person would want is an amplifier with a gain and power rating that gives the power that's needed for the situation using only the output voltage of his source component without the need of additional active stages.
Doesn't that sound like a better rule?
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 12/18/14 12/18/14
So Dennis,
If you have uncovered and implemented these new techniques which contradict established electronic theory, why is there no documentation of it past this public hobbyist internet forum?
Why have you not published your findings in a technical journal?
Why are these ground breaking techniques you have been practicing since 1989 (per LowMu) only admired by casual hobbyists who lack formal technical training?
Where is the commercial application of your techniques beyond your own niche product offerings?
To my knowledge you have no patents or copyrights filed so anyone is free to copy your work for commercial gain is they choose.
Why has no one done that?
Philanthropy
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