|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
71.0.211.193
In Reply to: RE: Maxing stock chokes and DHT filament transformers posted by bwaslo on December 05, 2014 at 13:17:45
Would you run your woofers on 22 AWG lead-in wire Bill ??
( I don't, I use the equivalent of 9 AWG , with silver content. )
Do wire choices matter in audio?
Is this 1901, or 2014 ???
:-)
Follow Ups:
I wouldn't wire the power supply of a 200w solid state amp with 22awg wire either. I would probably use at least 16ga.Obviously based on your post here, you don't even understand the most basic of electrical theory - that is Ohm's law.
Edits: 12/08/14
I suppose the issue is this.
Most have experienced good results by going to a larger gauge wire in some application, an example being, people tinkering with car audio are well served using large gauge wire. It is needed to pass the low voltage high current to the amp, then high wattage current to the subs etc.
It is also practice, (not just in this field) to use smaller gauged wires to pass higher voltages. In North American households 120V @~2000 watts is passed through 14 gauge solid wire.
These amplifiers draw a fraction of what the power circuits can provide.
So it stands to reason that 22AWG is suitable to pass 400+ volts at some milliamps,as the wattage is very low in comparison.
It is not clear the benefit of using such think wire when there is no evidence that the 22awg is insufficient for the voltage and current in that location in the amplifier.
Comparing it to speaker wire is not really applicable, as the voltage is stepped down after the OPT and in that case it stands to reason that the wire be a little bigger then the high voltage-low amp stage.
One thing to consider is this: while amplifiers DRAW small currents, they are, after all, really pulsed devices.
And that's when large, high quality wire and close-coupled "bird's nest" wiring makes a whopping difference-- when the leading edge of a pulse hits all of the components in the amp.
The question is then-- what does it do with the pulse when the existing wiring and parts are already drawing current. Where does the pulse have room to go?
Think of the "draw" current as a one-foot diameter snake going down thru a 10 foot wide hallway. No problem! No?
Then, the snake swallows a nice, juicy 40 foot diameter morsel. That is our pulse-- as in amplifiers and music.
Now, if that hallway was made 50 feet wide instead of 10 feet, NO problem, the snake, meal and all, can still negotiate it!
---Dennis---
Dennis, please understand that the "40 foot diameter morsel" can be no bigger than twice the idle current.If your driver tube is idling at .6ma, the most it will ever draw (and stay linear) is 1.2ma (keep in mind that a waveform that causes the idle current to double will also cause the tube to reach cutoff)
If your output tube is idling at 43ma, the most it will ever draw (and stay linear) is 86ma. (keep in mind that a waveform that causes the idle current to double will also cause the tube to reach cutoff)
Those are not large pulses that require huge wire. You've just made this stuff up in your mind, it has no basis in reality.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 12/08/14
Very nice, logical and correct.
But, to no avail.
Try this: Take any cathode resistor. Let's say, for example, it's a ten-watter at 12K.
Now, purchase TWO 5-watters, each at 24K.
Parallel them-- you'll have to match them within about 1/10% or the experiment won't deliver.
The value and the watt ratings are now the same (the single 12K, and the NEW 12K-- made from TWO 24K).
They will sound VERY different even if you use the same brand, etc.
What you're dealing with here isn't anything we have calculations for. You're dealing with the pulse behavior of materials, not so much their values.
Wire is no different.
---Dennis---
You said "Think of the "draw" current as a one-foot diameter snake going down thru a 10 foot wide hallway. No problem! No?Then, the snake swallows a nice, juicy 40 foot diameter morsel. That is our pulse-- as in amplifiers and music."
That pulse is a current increase. That current increase does not ever get bigger than twice the idle current. If it does get bigger than that the whole gig is up because you are no longer operating the amplifier in a linear manor so who cares? In your amplifier, that you rate at 1 watt, the current increase will be even smaller.
So whatever you are saying about "the pulse behavior of materials" are only important to a current value of no more than twice the idle current not some huge current "pulse" that you are imagining.
On a different note,
Dennis, will you ever finish this discussion?
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/set/messages/7/77021.html
You said;
"You won't get more "oomph" from any 2A3 by running more than 45 ma. It doesn't work that way. *When the tube is not run as hard (as the standard 60 ma.), it can stand far more input swing without distorting*."
Speaking only about the part between the **, I say that you are dead wrong.
When we got to this point in our conversation you just stopped.
Why? Is it because you don't have an answer?
It's very rude to just stop in the middle of a conversation Dennis.
If you decrease the idle current, without increasing the plate voltage and increasing the load impedance (as you have done in your design), the tube will reach clipping (distortion) SOONER, not later.
[ What I'm saying here is that you lowered the idle current and you didn't increase the voltage or the load impedance]
I can prove this to you but all you have to do is look at a load line on a set of plate curves and you will see for yourself that as the idle current is lowered (without changing anything else) the right side of the load line dips into the non-linear region (and cutoff) sooner, not later.
Please correct this mis-information that you posted.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 12/08/14 12/08/14 12/08/14
I would be willing to bet another $100 that you wouldn't be able to demonstrate any statistically significant ability to discriminate between the 12K vs the two 24K cathode resistors, in a properly-conducted double-blind listening experiment.
Chris
So Far,
You owe me $200 Chris !!!
Jeff Medwin
"So Far,
You owe me $200 Chris !!!
Jeff Medwin"
That's odd...I had made my second $100 bet offer to "Tube Wrangler." I had always, perhaps naively, assumed that "Tube Wrangler" and "drlowmu" were two different people. Are you saying they are actually one and the same? That might explain a thing or two! :)
Chris
> And that's when large, high quality wire and close-coupled
> "bird's nest" wiring makes a whopping difference-- when the
> leading edge of a pulse hits all of the components in the amp.> The question is then-- what does it do with the pulse when the
> existing wiring and parts are already drawing current. Where
> does the pulse have room to go?Doesn't have anything in common with engineering.
Correlation between electric current and some kind of water pipe is meaningless to say at least.Minimum thickness of wire is calculated upon allowed voltage drop and temperature rise.
Edits: 12/07/14
"Think of the "draw" current as a one-foot diameter snake going down thru a 10 foot wide hallway. No problem! No?
Then, the snake swallows a nice, juicy 40 foot diameter morsel. That is our pulse-- as in amplifiers and music.
Now, if that hallway was made 50 feet wide instead of 10 feet, NO problem, the snake, meal and all, can still negotiate it!"
Yes, but if the "hallway" (drlowmu's choke output leads) is followed by a very long corridor (the rest of the wire in the choke), then it doesn't matter whether the fattened-up snake can get through the 50 ft hallway or not, if the rest of the corridor it needs to go down is still only 10 ft wide.
The analogy, in any case, is not a very close one, and is not worth pursuing. But the underlying question remains: Why should it make any significant difference at all to replace four inches of the hundred feet of 22 AWG wire in the choke by 12 gauge silver wire? The other 99 feet 8 inches are still the same old 22 AWG wire that is claimed by drlowmu to be too thin.
Chris
You ask :
"Why should it make any significant difference at all to replace four inches of the hundred feet of 22 AWG wire in the choke by 12 gauge silver wire? The other 99 feet 8 inches are still the same old 22 AWG wire that is claimed by drlowmu to be too thin."
(1) You have no control over the 99 feet eight inches, its IN the magnetic flux, in the choke, doing its thing.
(2) For the four inches outside of the magnetic flux, you HAVE control, and remember my audio lesson number ONE Chis...
" an inch of bad wire can ruin the musical experience".
I learned that audio lesson YEARS ago, when are YOU going to wake up and smell 'de roses dude ??
Jeff Medwin
"You have no control over the 99 feet eight inches, its IN the magnetic flux, in the choke, doing its thing."There seem to be two possible interpretations of what you are claiming:
a) Yes, it is 99 feet 8 inches of crappy wire, but since you can't do anything about it you will just live with it. In which case, this raises the question as to why it is worth bothering with improving a 4 inch length of the crappy wire, when the overwhelming majority of the crappy wire remains. The percentage effect of such an "improvement" would be negligible.
OR
b) Perhaps you are claiming that the crappy wire ceases to be crappy when it is in a magnetic field. All its previous "inability to keep pace with the timing of the music," or whatever, is miraculously cured by immersing it in a magnetic field. If this is what you are claiming, then perhaps you could give some references to literature where these kinds of phenomena are documented?
Chris
Edits: 12/08/14
The REAL question you need to ask yourself is, why do multiple persons, respectable audiophile builders, who have done this report it sounds better to them?
Could you be overlooking a simple way to improve audio performance, due solely to your very closed mind set ?
Jeff Medwin
"The REAL question you need to ask yourself is, why do multiple persons, respectable audiophile builders, who have done this report it sounds better to them?"
Multiple persons on the Tweakers' Forum report that the sound is better when they put crystals in the room, or sprinkle magic dust, or whatever. It proves nothing, except that people are capable of imagining things that are not real.
Chris
The carpet looks very clean to me. So.......
Post a Followup:
FAQ |
Post a Message! |
Forgot Password? |
|
||||||||||||||
|
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors: