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In Reply to: RE: A Story of Harmonics posted by Mr_Steady on December 05, 2014 at 15:33:27
"The link is the best little anecdote I've read about a smidge of second harmonic distortion in with your music."Well, I don't have any problem with the claim that people, or at least some people, may find some added harmonic distortion to have a pleasing sound. That is really a psycho-acoustical question. It is essentially saying that they find the sound is better if it is put through a sort of "sound effects box." This is perfectly believable.
However, it is not the case that the distorting amplifier is restoring or recovering harmonics that were lost in the recording process. It is introducing some new sound effects that were not present in the original. And it is also introducing new kinds of distortion that were not present at all in the original concert-hall performance. For example, the harmonics that Benny Kim's Stradivarius produce do not result, in the concert hall, in intermodulation distortions amongst the sounds from all the other instruments that are playing. But the distorting amplifier, even if it is only contributing second-order distortion, is going to generate lots of intermodulation distortion products amongst all the sounds that it is reproducing.
Also, I didn't see any explanation in that little story about why the recording process was supposed to be preferentially suppressing the harmonics in the Stradivarius, while preserving the fundamental. However, the article claimed that "what we lose are subtle harmonics." I don't think there are "subtle harmonics" and "non-subtle harmonics." There is just an audio signal that can be decomposed in a Fourier analysis into a spectral distribution of frequencies.
In any case, if any "subtle harmonics" really are lost in the recording process, then they are lost. Period. Running the signal through a distorting amplifier is not going to succeed in subtlely restoring them again.
Chris
Edits: 12/05/14Follow Ups:
I wouldn't advocate adding distortion but the best measuring amp is not always the best sounding one.
I'm probably gonna get flamed for this, but...
IMH and unlearned opinion a lot of it comes down to side-harmonics. Class AB amps somehow self-cancel the side harmonics, and thereby reduce the amount of musical information the ear/brain receives. They sure sound like they do. I believe class A amplifiers allow more of the input signal to be reproduced by the speakers, and the ear/brain is able to hear this, discern it, and add it to our muscial enjoyment.
I think a good analogy is MP3 vs WAV. The side-harmonics is exactly what the MP3 guts out of the music. Just throws it away. Anybody who isn't deaf can hear a WAV file sounds better than an MP3.
What I took away from the story was; The violinist thought his Stradavarious sounded more like a real violin on a SET amp, although it still didn't sound like a Stradavarious. Sometimes in life we just have to get by the best we can.
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Jamie, I remember reading an article in Stereo Review where one of the editors decided to learn how much distortion could be heard in 'real world' listening to music. He got some of his 'golden ear' buddies together for a listening test with a home system. I don't remember all the particulars, but what stuck with me was the conclusion. All of these expert listeners couldn't hear distortion until it was well within single digit and/or double digit distortion. I haven't thought twice about measured distortion since. I started looking at things differently and ran across an obscure company named Electronic Tonalities.
If second order distortion has me listening to music for hours and wanting more. as apposed to a clean amp that has me fatigued after an hour or so, I'm all for the distortion.
How's that amp build coming along?
"The violinist thought his Stradavarious sounded more like a real violin on a SET amp, although it still didn't sound like a Stradavarious. "Where, in the story below, does it say the Benny listened to a recording of his violin? It doesn't, it said the police had him listen to his violin. We have to assume the police had a different violin player come down to the police station and play different violins, including Benny's and Benny, even though he was blindfolded, picked his violin.
*The police after finding the Stradivarius violin back wants to be sure that it really is the correct violin of Benny Kim, so they blindfold him and make him listen to a number of different violins at the police station, can he recognise his violin ?
Probably yes, for a trained ear it should be easy, but Benny is sitting in a police office and is under stress and not in his familiar surroundings (conservatorium or practising room ) and still he probably manages to recognise his violin.*"IMH and unlearned opinion a lot of it comes down to side-harmonics. Class AB amps somehow self-cancel the side harmonics, and thereby reduce the amount of musical information the ear/brain receives."
By "Class AB amps" I am assuming you mean push pull amplifiers running in Class AB?
A push pull amplifier will cancel even ordered harmonics that are created in the push pull part of the circuit. Even ordered harmonics that are part of the input signal, as well as anything else that is part of the input signal, are not canceled by the push pull circuit, just the even ordered harmonic distortion that is created by the push pull circuit itself.
"I think a good analogy is MP3 vs WAV. The side-harmonics is exactly what the MP3 guts out of the music. Just throws it away. Anybody who isn't deaf can hear a WAV file sounds better than an MP3."
I agree with the last sentence but the parts of the music that are intentionally thrown away as part of the process of making a MP3 has nothing to do with push pull circuits and the canceling of even ordered harmonic distortion. Not even close, so it's not a good analogy at all.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 12/06/14
"A push pull amplifier will cancel even ordered harmonics that are created in the push pull part of the circuit. Even ordered harmonics that are part of the input signal, as well as anything else that is part of the input signal, are not canceled by the push pull circuit, just the even ordered harmonic distortion that is created by the push pull circuit itself."
That's what they say. I'm not so convinced. You may be. There seems to be something going on with PP amps that don't meet the ear. I have a feeling our ability to really test what is going on is rather more limited than some people imagine.
Carry on.
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
"There seems to be something going on with PP amps that don't meet the ear."Yes, I explained that in my first post.
Push pull creates odd ordered (the very kind of distortion that humans find objectionable) harmonic distortion.
Did you read the linked Lynn Olson page?
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 12/06/14
"Push pull creates even ordered (the very kind of distortion that humans find objectionable) harmonic distortion."
No it doesn't. I produces higher odd order harmonics. So you are wrong Tre' How about that?
I have read all the Lynn Olson I could get my hands on many times.
Now I want you to say you are wrong. Even if you explain it as a misprint. LOL
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
You will find that when I'm wrong about something I have no problem admitting it.Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 12/06/14
"You will find that when I'm wrong about something I have no problem admitting it."
You didn't admit you were wrong in this case. You explained it. You said you were sorry, but you didn't admit you were wrong.
I have learned quickly on this forum that a typo, or simple mistatement can have the Accuracy Gestapo on you in a heartbeat. I won't report you to them.
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
"I won't report you to them."Thanks Man! :-)
And no, I didn't admit that I was wrong. In this case, I just mis-typed.
But when I'm proven wrong, and that has happened many times, I do admit it.
I'm not near as stubborn as it may seem.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 12/06/14
"Thanks Man! :-)"
No Problem! ;)
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
.
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
It was just an interesting little story. I don't like "effects boxes." And I think the old research said the human ear couldn't pick out 4% added second harmonic distortion, so I think it's a bit of a red herring. I think well designed SET amps can be held to 4% second harmonic distortion.
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
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