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In Reply to: RE: Wrong forum? posted by Mr_Steady on November 26, 2014 at 20:59:20
And herein lies the hard part.
Locally there's some Altec 755c's in JE labs style baffles for sale, there's some klipsch la scales for more money, and some Cornwalls. I haven't read the entire Fostex catalogue yet, but that's another route. I am aware of quite a few of the options regarding speakers, but Making up my mind is another story. Then there are altecs, but that is really committing myself both financially and real estate wise!
If you think my desire to build the 91a is Quixotic, it is not the half of it, last year I decided to build a pair of "sweet sixteen" speakers per early 60s popular electronics, I just always wanted to know what are they really like, if some magic occurs which makes it more than the sum of their parts (hint: there is no magic). In the end it was fun, gave me a fun wood working project, and didn't cost a whole lot... Some people spend way more than that on a weekend skiing. My interest in copying the 91a is similar, however as a nod to practicality I do want to buy good output transformers, which can be reused in as many projects as possible going forward, in the remote chance the 91a design fails to meet my expectations :)
Follow Ups:
Max,
Building sweet sixteen speakers is a hell of a lot less Quixotic than the 91a. SSS were designed for home audio. The 91a was designed to be used with an Edison Film Projector.
You should check out Minh at Tube Audio Lab. He sells kits of an updated Sound Practices 91a, and offers remote assistance by phone, not like you would need that.
I have a feeling you will be designing an amp around your new tubes. It's so easy for the cart to get in front of the horse. A SP91a running your tubes at 2.5v would be very cool.
If you want to talk high efficiency speakers, then it would probably be better to do it on that forum. Start a thread if you like, and give your listening area particulars.
Oh, you can get a pair of 45s on ebay for $60, so that's what you're out if you convert your little amp to a 45.
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Yeah, I am thinking JE Labs baffle with some as yet unknown driver... it will get me started with a minimal investment. Don't want to lock in to some high dollar horn system just yet. Already posted on the High Eff form.
I think you're totally right about using the JJs in my "big" amplifier. It's almost trivial to design in an adjustable filament voltage and change the bias, so probably at first it will use these before I actually buy any 300B's. To be honest I am just way too cheap to buy expensive tubes like that and not use them... it must be genetic or something.
If I do build a 91a, it won't be *exactly* as per original design. The main element from the original I want is negative feedback. I want to at least have it possible to add some, just to experiment with speaker damping and see what it does to the sound. Obviously the power supply won't be identical, and I certainly will need to improve the frequency response. The first stage can always be removed later on if I decide I don't like it, making it easily convertible to an SP91A anyway.
To be honest I probably have a couple of 45s in my "shop", if I only go through all the other tubes I will find them. I just at this point don't see the value in making my amplifier LESS powerful :)
How much are the Cornwalls you know about?
" The first stage can always be removed later on if I decide I don't like it, making it easily convertible to an SP91A anyway."
You go boy. Just keep in mind that it's a rabbithole.
" I just at this point don't see the value in making my amplifier LESS powerful :)"
True. Do you want to run SET on the Tannoy's?
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
"How much are the Cornwalls you know about?"
$2700 CDN, and the seller makes note of them being Cornwall III. If it was a cheap pair of first gen I would call it a no brainer, but this is way too much. I also recently listened to some Heresy 3's, and to be honest I found them very coloured sounding. I prefer my Tannoy speakers. I am not completely sure classic klipsch is for me.
"You go boy. Just keep in mind that it's a rabbithole."
A 6J7 is a $10 tube (with other uses), and there's a small handful of passive components. It will take me what, a couple extra hours to install and remove? I may even make it so it can be switched in and out. I have to find out for myself that NFB won't make an SET sound better...
"True. Do you want to run SET on the Tannoy's?"
No, they will find application in my other system, I am just using them now, well, because they exist. I don't have more efficient speakers on hand, and the Tannoys sound very good... the 2A3 just runs out of oomph.
As a note, the room is 30x14x8, speakers on the narrow end. Acoustic tile ceiling, carpet floor, wood panelling on the walls. A 1960s style basement rec room, but with newer carpet and furniture. It's more or less my favourite room of the house, and I have no problems using whatever speakers my heart desires in that room - price and personal preference being the main factors.
-Max
"the 2A3 just runs out of oomph". It isn't the tube! Nor is it the speaker.
what's left?
---Dennis---
Dennis, the Tannoy Saturn S6 are rated at only 90db.
Are you saying that 3.5 watts is enough power for a 90db speaker?
That goes against common wisdom but you're good at that. :-)
Why won't you answer my other question about what happens when you change only the idle current WRT HD?
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Thanks, TRE. I stand corrected.Tannoy with a 90 db speaker. That's like Ferrari with a $15,000 3-cylinder automobile. What FOR?
That's not what Tannoy is famous for, and is not what I've seen and heard from Tannoy at audio shows. Reasonably Hi-Eff., large speakers is what Tannoy MEANS to audiophiles.
It won't be the only speaker Co. to broaden-out their range and Kow-Tow to the low-eff. speaker crowd. After all, sales count also, and there are plenty of big-power, low-cost (and low quality) amps out there to choose from.
But the SET Asylum for INEFFICIENT speakers?That is an Oxymoron! When you go below about 93/94 db/watt, you normally go Solid-State. SET Tube amps start sleazing out of accurate audio reproduction range after about 3-4 watts unless they are very carefully engineered, and that costs real money. (yes, I'm building one. No, it can't be cheap).
If you don't believe it, just take any speaker that needs and is using about 10-12 watts from a SET (I don't care how big the SET is, some SETS are 200 watts!), and swap-in a really good Solid-State amp like Boulder, MBL, Spectral.
If the difference in overall speed, rhythm, pace and timing isn't obvious, then one doesn't require accurate reproduction of music anyway.
---Dennis---
Edits: 11/29/14 11/29/14
Shilling your own product.
Are you scared to death about hearing from people in the field who actually have experience with more than one design philosophy and audio setups?
You have your own philosophy, I'm sure, and I don't fault you for that.
But what about people who have used all of these systems-- and know how to approach a set of audio needs, and get it right the first time, saving wasted time and a lot of wasted effort and money?
Looks like you want to shut them up! What are YOU selling?
If someone builds something that one could buy? So what! There are many contributors on this forum that regularly sell things to forum members. What I referred to is a FACT-- if you haven't used a great Solid-State amp-- (which I DO NOT sell!), and you think a medium or high-powered tube amp is going to beat it musically, then you are sorely mistaken... it DOES NOT OCCUR, period.
Did you see my post selecting DecWare (Steve) as great value/dollar? I DO NOT sell it! I was honest with the guy who could benefit from it.
Again, so what? If the guy gets something right that's useful to you, then go after it. If it doesn't apply to your situation, then DON'T go after it. What could be easier than that?
If you want widely experienced people to quit posting so you can have this forum all to a narrow band of identical thinkers who do nothing much better than swap schematics and mathematics, but do little to understand what really performs in the home, then you have created a closed society.
Closed societies are always terminal in the end.... Why? They're relevant only unto themselves-- and that, in itself, becomes irrelevant.
Are you insisting that the forum become irrelevant? A place where only the cheap to buy or build and the most commonly understood-- become the only items up for discussion?
If you like that, then you're getting more of it every day, and less and less of what really matters. The question is-- do others on this forum really want that?
---Dennis---
.
When you have an M in your profile, you are held to a different standard. Decware is nice, if you can't do any better. That's the kind of statements you routinely make. Soft peddling product. You are like Bobby Palkovic of Merlin. Selling couched in advice. Why not set up your own forum? Seems like a direct way to get your message out. Closed society? That is a good description of you and Dennis and your groupies. A cult is a closed society and you and your ilk are far more cultish than most contributors here.
Edits: 11/30/14 11/30/14 11/30/14
GEO,
How about this?
I start a thread on the SET forum about the DCR PS concept. I have heard Paul Joppa call it a "double-stacked" PS. I think that's what he called it. I would let DF decide the nomenclature.
Then when someone starts a thread and says, "Hi, I want to design a Pi filter." Then DF or JM can post a little note to check out the LDCR thread and give a link, and leave it at that. It may work.
The shilling is another matter entirely. That last one barely blipped up on the radar, but you are right, it was there.
I have to go do yard work. Maybe by the time I get back there will have been some discussion about this idea.
Just trying to help,
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
I enjoy reading what people have to say but those guys are only interested in one perspective and Dennis is always soft selling. Nobody has said their amps don't sound good. Most people have not heard them. No other manufacturer shills like that. Palkovic at Merlin was notorious in speaker asylum. That company has groupies too. Bobby should get a room just like Dennis. Trying to act like he is being philanthropic. Cut his price in half for the good of the hobbyist if he is so benevolent.Larry Moore uses a double stacked supply. I had his 2A3 . It was nice. These guys are no Larry Moore. And I am not saying their amps don't sound good. An equalizer can make an amp "sound good" also, if you are into that.
Edits: 11/30/14 11/30/14
On the "old, tired, broken record": Dr. low mu is correct-- only in the case of a 2-stage D.C. amp.
For cap-coupled amps, if one applies a separate power source to each stage, there will be substantial benefits.
In the case of a 2-stage S.E. D.C. amp, the object is to get the two direct-coupled tubes to act as one tube-- in theory-- in sync with each other..
In actual practice, the result is pretty awesome if separate filtering is applied to the first stage power. Effectively, one is providing a separate power source for the driver, which is de-coupled from the main supply, BUT-- and this is very important-- the main supply is still in sync with the driver supply that comes from it.
I'm rambling here to be sure, so accept my apology. This is, however, proven technology-- it works like gangbusters when used correctly.
---Dennis---
Share your thoughts via private email with Don as he will not be on this board shilling his Direct Coupled 2A3. You continue to slight his amplifiers with backhanded compliments.
Anyone can, and should post on the forum if he thinks that he can benefit forum members, maybe help them save some cash by getting/building what they need first, rather than later.I don't wish to offend anyone who builds and sells equipment-- rather I appreciate them for what they do. I know how tough it can be, and I think their efforts, like my own, are to be applauded.
That doesn't mean that one shouldn't keep advancing the state of the art, but if that advancement comes at too high a price for someone who could still benefit substantially from a lower-priced, good piece of equipment from someone else, that it can't or shouldn't be discussed objectively.
Perhaps I am not the one who should discuss that, and for that reason I apologize-- right here, right now, if anyone feels offended-- that was not my intent.
Normally, forum members don't buy from any of us-- they want some ideas before they build something for themselves. The chance that a forum member is going to call up one of us and buy anything-- is extremely remote, to say the least, so WHY are we then contributing here?. Most members are looking to build for themselves.. or buy at a lower price.
Dr low mu has been so kind as to try and give out as much info as he can to those who ask "what can I build or buy that is better than the average that I can afford"? The price to buy probably leaves my stuff out!! I put into in what I know it takes-- would I buy it? YES! Should you? Not if it's too expensive for you, and I understand that.
I don't think anyone who contributes on this DIY forum is trying to "Schill"-- where did that term come from-- I think he's probably giving of his time for free-- offering the gift of experience to those who care about it.
Perhaps some of you other manufacturers out there in the closet would like to join the forum and offer help to the DIY builders who can't afford to buy your equipment, but would appreciate hearing from you on your design expertise......
People have asked me for a "KIT". That's not something I could set up to do, but it is an opportunity for some of my competitors for sure.
Do you hear opportunity knocking?
None of us will be here forever-- are we going to leave anything for others?
---Dennis---
Edits: 12/01/14 12/01/14
Many here are paying customers. As far as your gear being too expensive. I would be surprised if you made as much as I do in a year, but anything is possible, I suppose. However, I will stick with my cheap budget equipment because it sounds good to my ears.
Edits: 12/01/14
According to Wikipedia, the term "shilling could have originated in carnivals. They also says this:
"Marketing
See also: Astroturfing
In marketing, shills are often employed to assume the air of satisfied customers and give testimonials to the merits of a given product. This type of shilling is illegal in some jurisdictions but almost impossible to detect. It may be considered a form of unjust enrichment or unfair competition, as in California's Business & Professions Code § 17200, which prohibits any "unfair or fraudulent business act or practice and unfair, deceptive, untrue or misleading advertising."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shill
Hardly a reason to get a real cowboy all riled up, unless of course you were trying to pawn your friends horse off as a Kentucky Derby winner when in fact it should be on the way to the glue factory.
Edits: 12/01/14
Definition of SHILL
1a : one who acts as a decoy (as for a pitchman or gambler)
b : one who makes a sales pitch or serves as a promoter
Fitting...
Thanks for the link. Yes, it just goes on and on. I can see the fallacies.
I think I'll give up on power supplies for a while, and leave them to somebody who understands them. Sorry if I annoyed anybody.
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
There are plenty people. All Jeff and Dennis need to do is say they don't care if their supply is poorly designed, they like they way it sounds and move on and so does Dennis' paying customers. Dennis comes on this board and softly denigrates the Fi amps.Jeff and Dennis are relentless
Edits: 11/30/14
"I have to find out for myself that NFB won't make an SET sound better... "
Go for it. Better than listening to someone elses opinion about it. That's a deep subject in itself.
Sorry I can't contribute anything about wide range drivers.
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Sounds like you could use a good transformer on the cheap. I saw a pair of Magnequest FSO-30's on E-Bay. Price was reasonable.Used, normally-- (if not abused) should not hurt an output trans.
The FSO-30 could be used with a wide variety of small/medium-sized output triodes-- 2A3, 300B, etc. You could run the KT-88, triode connected into this if you really wanted to.
Input Impedance is 3K, there are options for impedance-matching at the output..
---Dennis---
Edits: 11/27/14
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