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In Reply to: RE: Decipher This posted by Stuben on November 18, 2014 at 07:14:51
If you want to be open minded then why not do the research in electrical engineering to learn how electrons travel through materials.
Now for somebody just starting out I agree that could take years.
So why not listen to those of us that have that training and experience rather than someone with no accredited background whatsoever in the subject.
How many electronics professionals here support Dennis's theories? What does that tell you.
Follow Ups:
then make my design/ build decisions on a range of factors. I am willing to play it by the book, listen to the EEs I find credible; I am also willing to experiment.Frankly, as a past Research Manager and someone now responsible for a team that provides critical data for research projects, I find the arguments presented here and in the thread below unconvincing.
Would you suggest that the credibility of "those of us that have that training and experience" has been enhanced by the comments posted to this thread by the main protagonists? Do you think that the methods, arguments and behaviours demonstrated here and below have earned you the privilege to be considered worth listening to? What value do you think you have added beyond appealing to the like-minded? Frankly, if you want to be listened to - to be heard - as you suggest, you need to lift your game.
I will regret posting on this topic, in this manner, but there it is.
Cheers.
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's mind there are few." Shunryo Suzuki
Edits: 11/19/14 11/19/14
Gentleman or %^&hole doesn't matter. Scientific facts are what they are.
You may prefer conversing with the layman gentleman versus an arrogant engineer. But be careful who's opinion you put your hard money on.
Your response confirms exactly my point: it seems almost entirely unrelated to what I posted. If your interpretations are far removed from reality, what is the point in continuing a dialogue?As for "facts", you don't simply post them. If they are absolute and should just stand, why not just post them with a simple explanation and move on?
You need to do better or stop.
Cheers.
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's mind there are few." Shunryo Suzuki
Edits: 11/19/14
But I think what you are trying to say is that I and possibly a few others here don't project an aura of credibility based on our hostile nature towards the Serious Stereo drama.OK, then people can ignore any or all of my advice if they choose.
This Serious Stereo amp has been rammed down our throats for years by LowMu. And talk about poor sportsmanship! LowMu has been very insulting to people who don't embrace his thinking.
So now we finally see the truth, the underside of this so called perfect amplifier and what do you know, it looks exactly like we expected. Just like many other hobbyist builds. Not bad but nothing special either.
If Dennis would simply say HE thinks his amps are the best and even offer some personal theories of why, nobody would be put off. But he chooses to dictate this junk science which is easily disputed by many people here.
If you think his ideas are worth your investment of time and money, then go for it. This is a hobby site. I don't care. I have a highly successful 30 year run in electronics, that would be the TV broadcast industry. I also hold senior IEEE membership, which requires accreditation and/or demonstrable experience measured by my peers.
So if you don't think I or anyone else who dares to challenge Dennis here is credible than don't. My technical competence and credibility are already established by several professional societies. I really don't give a hoot if the SET forum, Dr LowMu, or Dennis Fraker thinks otherwise.
Edits: 11/19/14 11/19/14 11/19/14
How could you be credible if you say "wire" does not make a difference in audio? We are in the DARK ages here - with you, a graduate EE.
And how can you be called "professional" using the terms you do ......"polished turd" comes to mind.
And, have you ever gone to an audio show to HEAR said amplifier, so you can speak from your direct LISTENING experience??
I've said all I care to.
Jeff Medwin
I didn't say wire makes no difference in audio. Surely the wrong type or gauge of wire in any electrical application can make a difference.What I did say is that I could replace any of the silver hookup wired in the Serious Stereo 2A3 amp shown with 18ga door bell wire from Home Depot and it will not sound any different. Nor will it measure any different using standard electrical tests.
There are simply no laws of physics that can substantiate an audible difference between door bell wire and the most expensive silver wire at those distances, signal energy levels, and application. Nothing!
You may quote the last two paragraphs at will.
Edits: 11/20/14 11/20/14 11/20/14 11/20/14
I have to ask, how in Dennis' world view is the stock wire, used on the lead outs for the secondary (including center tap) of the filament transformer winding, any better than what is being referred to as "the wrong wire"?
To anyone answering this question, keep in mind that those wires are in the signal path as is the wire between the plate of the driver tube and the grid of the output tube or the ground buss wire.
Are those wires somehow better than the "ACME wire, sourced from Lowes Hardware stores" that Grant used and was told that "one inch of the wrong wire can totally ruin the sound of an amplifier"?
There's no technical consistency in Dennis' argument, just a bunch of BS.
It's not just that I disagree with him technically. Dennis disagrees with himself technically.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
It looks to be a stock filament transformer, so I doubt the wires are anything more than stranded copper.
Perhaps this part has been upgraded/replaced by something better.
"Perhaps this part has been upgraded/replaced by something better."
I would assume so and Dennis confirmed that below.
My point is, at the time the picture of Dennis' amp was taken he was using the stock lead outs.
I don't personally think that those short leads would make any audible difference to start with but then I'm not a big "believer" in wire differences.
IMO, If 'one inch of the wrong wire ruins the sound of the whole amplifier' then the design of the amplifier sucks and needs to be re-designed.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Of course it has been.
I got into pulling the leads out of chokes & transformers and replacing them with Siltech wire.... I do that to speaker drivers as well, and to a whole lot more. This, of course, greatly improves their bandwidth and impulse response.
(Open up a JBL horn-driver, re-wire it with Siltech and THEN listen to the highs!). Use WonderSolder!
Dr. low mu, then, brought that idea (of replacing leads with TCSS, etc.) to you all so you could get more out of-- especially-- ordinary, commercial chokes.
I have had some chokes built to my specs lately-- they have silver leadouts designed-in. (more expensive).
These are very nice, but one can, if sufficiently handy, modify commercial chokes and get very good results. Leadouts can be re-anchored with G.E. Silicone-2. Let it cure thoroughly before you pull on that new wire!
Also, while inside the choke's insulating materials, make sure you re-insulate your new wiring against the winding stack-- just depending on its insulation alone won't make the choke reliable in long-term use.
---Dennis---
Many moons ago, I owned Spendor 9A. I decided to modify the existing stock zip wire that connected the drivers and replaced it with high end speaker wire.
Thanks for falling on your own sword, and hanging yourself, in just two quotable paragraphs. Shows how misinformed you are !! No fixing you. Nice job Gusser !!!
Jeff Medwin
Have you heard Gusser's amps? How do you know they don't sound better than yours? How do you know? Have you sat down and listened to them? Can you speak on Tre's amps from direct LISTENING experience? Just say you like how your amps sound and move on. If the amps can't be duplicated without pixie dust, then something is wrong.
I've seen Gusser's amps, and his build, and can imagine what it would be like.
I have used power supplies that are conventional, by the book, and I know what they do to the music.
They ( those two people ) have NEVER tried or heard what I have !!!
I speak from experience with BOTH approaches George, so, I am better prepared from an experienced point of view, direct experience, not guessing, and guessing-wrongly to boot.
There is no pixie dust, that is in your Grand-Kids' comic books. I do solid stuff in audio !!
Jeff Medwin
I thought someone here said, its not the schematic, but its the builder?
Just to set the record straight, I have tried both approaches.
I speak from experience with BOTH approaches.
Not only have I listened to both, I have bench tested both.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
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