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In Reply to: RE: Tangential, but... posted by PaulF70 on October 19, 2014 at 06:20:39
There is a big difference between copper primaries w/silver-plated secondaries and solid silver primaries & secondaries.
Follow Ups:
Right - a couple grand, I think.
"There is a big difference between copper primaries w/silver-plated secondaries and solid silver primaries & secondaries."
I'm not in the "silver is better" camp. However, as a casual observer, it's difficult to see how silver plating would be beneficial at these frequencies. A much larger percentage of the signal flows through the copper center than the silver plate. If an authority were to say (and apparently they did) that this sounds exactly like transformers made with solid silver wire, it might only serve to confirm that the same is true for copper.
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Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
Whether you are in the "silver is better" camp is personal preference. I too question the statement that silver-plating sounds the same as solid silver - I have extensive experience with amplifiers that are all copper with M6 EI cores, copper primary/silver secondary with 36% Ni double-C cores, and all silver with 50% Ni double-C cores and they all sound very different. When someone claims that a EI-cored transformer with copper primaries and silver-plated secondaries sounds the same as all-silver, it says to me that clearly they've never heard a proper all-silver transformer because the two are sonically far apart.
I think Jack has built and heard all silver transformers but I don't know that for sure.Jack's partial silver secondaries are multi stranded wires, not solid core so there's a lot more silver than there would be if they were silver plated single core wires.
"Silver performance and pricing:
Recently the price of silver has increased to a point that not many builders can afford silver transformers as a choice for improvement over standard copper output transformers. We have tested lower priced partial silver wire or silver plated multistrand wire and have found that the results were equally the same as solid silver wire. The amount of silver to copper was measured and it was found to be about 20% silver and 80% copper. The reason this combination worked as good as solid silver wire is that it is plated around the circumference of each copper wire. The flux generated by the primary would excite these surfaces first. The many strands then resulted in a larger silver surface area than one singular silver plated wire.New winding Design:
ElectraPrint Audio has developed a winding technique that uses PSSS wire effectively with a standard copper primary. Primary windings do not have to be silver. Plus, primaries cannot be wound with the silver plated stranded wire due to the final size being too large in diameter. Finally, a silver primary would not offer a performance improvement anyway as it provides the flux for the secondary."I don't claim to totally understand all this, all I know is Jack's PSSS output transformers sound great.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 10/19/14
"Finally, a silver primary would not offer a performance improvement anyway as it provides the flux for the secondary."
This is nonsense - one listen will show to the contrary. And I don't mean with pedestrian EI cores.
Adding to my previous post, Jack's logic above implies the signal flow is one directional, like a diode, which is incorrect. Just as the primary winding applies flux to the secondary, the secondary applies flux to the primary (speaker's back EMF and reflected load impedance). Therefore, if there is benefit to using silver in the secondary, then it's also beneficial to use in the primary.
.
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Donald, instead of a subjective listen, are there technical inaccuracies in what Jack is saying?I thought the advantage with silver, apart from it's lower resistance and the fact that silver oxide is a much better conductor than copper oxide, was it's ability to react to flux changes better than copper?
Why that would be true, I have no idea.
Is Jack totally off base?
TK, I would appreciate your input as well.
Edit to add, Wouldn't this be easy to test?
A Sawsall with a magnet attached to the blade. A coil of silver and a identical coil of copper. A scope (or volt meter).
The one that outputs more voltage is responding to the flux lines better. Right?
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 10/19/14
When I first met Jack in 2001-2002 he was a disbeliever in the benefit of silver. Later he started offering the silver-plated secondaries with the rationale as you quoted. From my experience with MC step-up transformers, TVCs, and output transformers, I've found silver windings provides many sonic benefits to clarity, life, and resolution. I believe it has something to do with magnetic flux sensitivity and have asked some Caltech faculty for their insight into the difference in behavior and to quantify, I suspect it will require a sensitive test setup. With that being said, there is a sonic benefit to also using silver windings in the primary. The improvement from copper primary/silver secondary to all-silver windings was not subtle to me in my system. I highly recommend you hear it for yourself.
I'm not disputing what you heard and it's very possibly that I would hear the same.
What I want to know is the technical reason why.
Thanks.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Sorry Tre, but I have a LOT of trouble with that statement. In fact, I can't decide which of its many inherent irrationalities to attack first. :) Oh well, time for dinner...
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Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
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