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In Reply to: RE: push pull cancels 2nd order distortion so you will lose that fat warm sound of set, my push/pull 45... posted by Cleantimestream on August 06, 2014 at 15:09:49
"Norman Crowhurst in the 50's validated through his groundbreaking research that several instruments derive their distinctive beautiful sound WITH and THROUGH 2nd order distortion...."Instruments?
Second harmonic produced by the instruments will be part of the input signal and will not be cancelled by a push pull circuit.
Push pull circuits cancel 2nd ordered distortion produced by the circuit, not 2nd ordered harmonics that are part of the input signal.
Maybe I misunderstood your point.
BTW Overtones (harmonics) produced by an instrument are not referred to as "distortion".
When those overtones are RE-produced by an amplifier, they are not called distortion.
Overtones that are created by an amplifier circuit are called distortion.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 08/07/14 08/07/14Follow Ups:
Instruments? Give this some thought and you will be able to extrapolate an answer, start with the King of instruments {a no-brainer, the organ}, the piano, any horn instrument and to a much lesser extent; all others.
Second harmonic produced by the instruments will be part of the input signal and will not be cancelled by a push pull circuit" This is obvious and no comment is necessary.
'Overtones (harmonics) produced by an instrument are not referred to as "distortion".' Correct, they are harmonics of the fundamentals and belong and are pleasing to the ear, I will now add, that DELIBERATE distortion added by an electrical guitar through an amplifier overdriven IS distortion AND is pleasing to the ear.
"Overtones that are created by an amplifier circuit are called distortion" No Sir. See my previous statement.
A set amp with varying amounts of 2nd order distortion IS pleasing to the ear. Years ago, a close friend and I were experimenting with a direct-coupled cathode follower SET design, we built one with a 2.5 K primary and a 5K primary ... otherwise identical. The 5K did indeed have lower distortion easily discerned via distortion analyzer and scope... made no difference, I preferred the 2.5K primary one {and so did he}... the finals tube in question was a triode wired 6V6.
Tis a bad day if I don't learn something.
What I WANT is the sound of a plasma tweeter, the midrange of my Quads and the bass of my Khorns.
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.
Edits: 08/07/14
That's all fine but a guitar amplifier is part of the creative process, part of the input signal to the playback amplifier.
Anything that the playback amplifier outputs that is not part of the input signal is distortion.
Now to the rest of it.
"Norman Crowhurst in the 50's validated through his groundbreaking research that several instruments derive their distinctive beautiful sound WITH and THROUGH 2nd order distortion" (can you show me what he said that? I'm not going to search the whole text.)
NO! Several [acoustic] instruments derive their distinctive beautiful sound with and through overtones produced by the instruments themselves NOT with and through 2nd ordered distortion produced by an amplifier.
In playback the sound of these instruments may be enhanced, in your opinion, by added harmonic distortion created by the playback amplifier but that's a whole different thing than saying that the instrument itself creates distortion.
BTW I would have pick the 5k OPT with it's lower distortion because I want to hear the instruments and their *distinctive beautiful sound of the overtones produced by the instruments themselves*. No additives need apply.
But that's just my opinion. I don't have a problem with opinions but they should be kept separate from facts. It just seemed to me you were mixing the two.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Several [acoustic] instruments derive their distinctive beautiful sound with and through overtones produced by the instruments themselves NOT with and through 2nd ordered distortion produced by an amplifier"
Am not saying that. The inherent even order distortion found in musical instruments does indeed contribute to their beauty... as Norman Crowhurst states.
"In playback the sound of these instruments may be enhanced, in your opinion, by added harmonic distortion created by the playback amplifier but that's a whole different thing than saying that the instrument itself creates distortion." The instruments themselves DO create distortion, and pleasing @ that, rather upsetting... isn't it? Was for me.
BTW I would have pick the 5k OPT with it's lower distortion because I want to hear the instruments and their *distinctive beautiful sound of the overtones produced by the instruments themselves*. No additives need apply" Heh, heh. There in lies the rub. My intellect, my rationale, my tape measure said the same bloody thing. Charlie Parker playing Now's the time said the exact opposite... every time.
My advice. Advice? I highly recommend you read Crowhurst before you discuss any further with me. He is far more articulate than I despite saying the same thing as I have put forth to you above. Paradigm shifts are rare. You have been served.
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.
"The inherent even order distortion found in musical instruments does indeed contribute to their beauty"I do understand what you are saying but I object to your use of the term "inherent even ordered distortion".
Acoustic instruments do not create distortion, they have overtones.
"Inherent even order overtones" would be the proper term.
Their sound is their sound, it is made up of fundamentals and overtones all produced by the instrument itself.
The difference between the sound of a violin and a viola playing the same A440 is the way the overtones are splayed out.
If you add something to that sound (through the creation of 2nd ordered harmonic distortion of the playback amplifier) then you have distortion (or, to say it a different way, you have distorted (changed) the natural sound of the instrument).
Can you please direct me to the part where Norman says acoustic instrument have distortion?
This is a slight distinction that makes a big difference in understanding.
When you play a A440 on the piano you will get 440, 880, 1320, 1760, etc..
The 880 that the piano is creating is not distortion, it's a natural overtone of the piano.
If you introduce 880 by means of the 2dn ordered distortion of the playback amplifier, even though it's the same note, it's distortion, not an overtone produced by the instrument.
I don't think my point is hard to understand.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 08/07/14
to us in distinguishing say an oboe from a violin. Many experiments have been done clipping and attack from one instrument and on to the 'tone' of an entirely different instrument. People consistently use the attack to identify the instrument it was made by, not the tone and harmonics of the other instrument.
We pay more attention to an instrument's starting transients or attacks, and next to the decay.
The attack 'fully characterizes' an instrument.
Harmonics on the continuous tone come way third. And they don't happen with pianos and all other percussion, anyway.
Warmest
Tim Bailey
Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger
This is a slight distinction that makes a big difference in understanding"
If you had the desire and perseverance for reading that important book, we would not be having this misunderstanding as you would understand the salient idea. The link will take you to someone whom has undoubtedly read Norman Crowhurst {One would have to read the whole book to understand} and he spells it out... indeed, the heading sums up what you want to dispute.
Their sound is their sound, it is made up of fundamentals and overtones all produced by the instrument itself" Yes Sir. Within that sound is distortion, sigh, not a perfect world. The human voice is an instrument... any argument there? Tom Waits voice distorts, so does Kate Bush... the spectra and magnitude differs. Never mind Charlie Parker always needing a new reed.
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.
You are using the term "distortions" differently than most.
See page 39.
This discussion has digressed into one of semantics and without clarifying will lead to misunderstanding in the broader sense.
No matter how "distorted" the input signal, changing it, in any way, results in what is normally called distortion.
Some of those distortions are very audibly objectionable and some are not.
If the playback could be made to be the same as the original then there would be no distortion in the playback and you will hear the "distortions" that were contained in the input signal.
Or you could add your favorite type of distortion to all input signals and live happily ever after.
Whatever.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
I am using distortions differently than most ?
Myself, Floyd Toole {many others} and Fast Fourier Analysis are viewing distortion differently... just not in such a negative light.
I read well beyond 38, you will find page 45 enlightening.
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.
Yes, you are using the term differently. The discussion was about distortion created in the amplifier, not about the overtones contained in the program material. If you wish to call the overtones inherent to the source "distortion," that's fine, but that's not the characteristic that was being discussed.
--------------------------
Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
"Yes, you are using the term differently. The discussion was about distortion created in the amplifier, not about the overtones contained in the program material. If you wish to call the overtones inherent to the source "distortion," that's fine, but that's not the characteristic that was being discussed."There is also another reason why there is a huge distinction between overtones produced within a musical instrument itself, and harmonics (a.k.a. distortion) generated by the amplifier. The overtones produced by the piano when the A440 note is played affect only the timbre of the sound produced by the piano, by contributing 880Hz, 1320Hz, etc. as well.
By contrast, harmonic distortion in the amplifier will not only generate harmonics of the note played by the piano, and any other instruments in the recording but, crucially, it will also lead to intermodulation distortions between the notes and harmonics produced by the various instruments. The mess of intermodulation products is an inevitable and undesirable feature of any distortion by the amplifier, whether it be 2nd harmonic, 3rd harmonic, or anything else.
So it is indeed, as you say, inappropriate to blur the distinction between overtones produced by musical instruments and harmonic distortion produced by amplifiers. Overtones in the notes produced by the piano do not create intermodulation distortion in the concert hall when a violin is playing as well!
Chris
Edits: 11/06/14 11/06/14 11/06/14
as you were... so shall you remain?
I do not know.
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.
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