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In Reply to: RE: Just unpacked my new Line Magnetic 210ia posted by Kloss on June 10, 2014 at 11:07:27
That's nice looking gear. Where is it made?
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Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
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"That's nice looking gear. Where is it made?"
Simple question, right? I build most of my own gear, so I'm not familiar with all the commercial offerings. This really got my attention due to the way it looks. Will appreciate it if someone could answer my question.
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Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
I am sure you guessed.
Line Magnetic amplifiers are made by Zhuhai Line Magnetic Audio Co. Ltd.
4th Floor Building
No.2 Ping Xi Road No.6
Nanping Industry Park,
Zhuhai,
Guangdong Province
Regards,
Geoff
Well, that one fooled me. It has more of a Japanese or eastern European look to it. Thanks!
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Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
It is more Western Electric inspired though. The owners have been in the western electric restoration business for years.
I made a big thread about this with lots of photos and factory tour pictures. Love the old WE amps.
link below
Coincidentally, I'll be in China within a week. Despite many visits, I have never had the urge to buy anything over $20 in that country. Even then, it's usually just a bus ticket. :)
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Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
Edits: 06/16/14
Yeah I lived there for a year - and most of what they make in all things are disastrous copies.
Then again a lot of North American stuff is rebadged Chinese stuff (hush hush) with far higher price points. It's pretty tough to take US companies seriously when companies like Theta Data (reviewed as king of the D player maker) bought a Philips Laser Disc player - put the entire $399 player (case included) into their own cheap case and added a whole $25 SPDIF cable and then charged $5,000. At least when the Chinese copy they charge copy prices.
Line Magnetic though is a different animal and so long as they don't do anything stupid they are slowly gaining a solid reputation. John DeVore of Devore Audio uses LM at audio shows and the US Shindo importer is also importing Line Magnetic.
It's definitely a company to keep an eye on over the next few years. Melody and Audio Space are two other good audio brands from China. I am also looking into Mei Xing but their predecessor (Ming Da) had a habit of using fake parts like Rudycon caps instead of Rubycon caps. A copier with dyslexia perhaps.
I have not opened the 219IA amp to check but I did have the dealer here do it to make sure it's using the correct parts. Unfortunately the 219IA is 121 lbs and it is difficult for me to start tipping it over. You have to just find a spot and sit it there and move your furniture around it. I've looked inside the LM DAC which is quite nice - good parts clean design excellent sounding DAC. Better with the NOS RCA bald heads I put in there.
Have you visited the HQ for Cayin in Zhuhai? They are the privatized company that used to build the electronics for the PRC Air Force. They build vacuum tube amps with less retro styling and less extreme audio with build quality similar to LM. They also do SS and digital products. They had a very good listening/demo room when I visited about 2 years ago. There to show off thier products driving Wilson WATTs among other high end speakers. Its only maybe 10 blocks from the Zhuhai Holiday Inn.
They also make a lower grade vacuum tube line (PP EL84, PP EL34, PP 300B) for the domestic Chinese market called Spark Zhuhai. You can see those tube amps in the higher end mall shops through out Zhuhai.
Yes I was at their dealer in Hong Kong where I auditioned the Mei Xing preamp through Cayin's flagship mono block power amps into B&W matrix 801s.
I think there are some good Chinese brands - and basically Triode Kingdom is correct - the ones who sell in the west and tend to last make very respectable to very good products. You can kind of tell by which importers and which dealers are willing to put themselves behind it. John Devore and Tone Imports use and bring in Line Magnetic so there is a degree of "vetting" (although I chanced it based on sound quality).
Audio Space, Antique Sound Labs, Melody, are examples of brands that have managed to last in the west so they're pretty safe bets at least that there is support and above average QC. Cayin is also on this list and I believe is one of the biggest makers in the field making OEM for other brands. Line Magnetic for example makes the Amplifiers for Triode Co out of Japan.
I read the Cayin review and measurements at Stereophile - the comments were excellent build and parts and it measured well too http://www.stereophile.com/content/cayin-50t-integrated-amplifier-measurements
The big thing I suspect is the transformer - start with a good transformer and it's pretty tough to screw it up - even if they are just copying 1950 schematics - today's parts quality with good proven designs and you add in the great paint jobs of the Cayin (the blue ones are great). I took some photos on my phone but I am at work and no cable to connect to the computer to show them.
The difference is that Cayin seems more interested in the higher power PP tube amp market (that is the emphasis) where Line Magnetic has those at the lower price range but their bigger emphasis is on SE.
Here is a picture of the Line Magnetic line (My amp is top left and Kloss's amp is back middle.
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"Rudycon caps," LOL. Reminds me of the last Chinese trade show I attended in the '90s. Boxes everywhere said "Make in USA." Yes, the rebranding issue is a big problem, and not just in audio. It's several layers deep, as manufacturers in other countries are sometimes buying junk from China, then reshipping it to us. By the time it gets here, it's branded and originated in the second or third country. That's one reason I build my own. Buying new parts from reputable dealers like Digikey and Mouser, and using NOS switches, meters, etc., I'm guaranteed a very high percentage of North American component content. My kids will inherit this stuff before it breaks. :)
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Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
That's whatLampizator was doing - he'd find a half decent Chinese amp (cause many look cool) and the oens that have quality transformers he could then open up and basically rebuild the internals to something he felt was much better. But he got the good case and the good transformers and upgrading the rest isn't too pricey.For regular consumers it helps if the dealer you buy from has the ability to make the modifications and tell you that you are getting the correct part.
I have seen Chinese amps and CD players where there is a tube on display that doesn't actually do anything it just sits in the front like a woman in a brothel and looks all tubey --- ooh ahhh (Ahem Vincent Audio which is rebadged Shengya) So you buy a Tube CD player but really it's a SS CD player - they will call it "hybrid" - then you get parts that say Wima but may not be and on it goes. Not that Wima is particularly expensive to start with.
Some copies are good mind you. China came out with the HiPhone. It became so popular (because apparently it is a very good copy) that other companies started copying the HiPhone - a copy of the copy!!!!!!!
If you are a Chinese company that does actually love audio and you start out you have a HUGE negative view going against you from the start. No one trusts the products (understandably) so how do you break free from that reputation?
If I was them I would have to come out swinging with an overbuilt tank of an amplifier and use sourced higher end parts from other countries (if for no other reason the add some credibility). Line Magnetic uses Cardas cables and connectors. Is it because they are necessarily better? MAYBE. But it's probably more likely that by using known parts that can be checked and verified you can set yourself apart from the field a little bit. You use German caps or Japanese Alps pots you get a feel for the the level. And you say well ALPS isn't that great but it's a tick up from the bottom and if you sell your amp for $1500 and the American company sells his for $6k and also use the same Alps then you start getting ahead of the competition.
I now live in Hong Kong and Chinese made stuff is a very hard sell here as well. The Hong Kong Chinese view stuff made in China as crap so they buy the Shindo/Audio Note/old restored McIntosh/Eisntein/VAC etc and DIY is popular here - The dealers have cap upgrades galore, wiring, etc.
The other issue is a lack of consistency - the Chinese will often sell the superior product overseas and sell the cheap junk lookalike at home or online dealers. So the US version will get the Rubycon and Mundorf and the online outlets may sell the Rudycon and Milf-don caps.
Ultimately it's why I generally always go back to Audio Note - I always know I will get the real deal part - it may be expensive but they tend to retain their value such that it often winds up being less expensive than the Chinese. I sold my Audio Note turntable for more than I paid for it several years back - I can sell my OTO Phono SE amplifier for what I paid for it 10 years ago (ditto my Audio Note J/Spe speakers). I had a free stereo system for a decade. So when people say this stuff is expensive I scratch my head. Sure not everything will this work but the models don;t change for 20 years but the new list price continues to rise and rise. Then the second hand value rises and rises. And because the model is not replaced the second hand item is second hand but "current."
Edits: 06/17/14
Even the mainland Chinese are very suspicious of domestic made goods -as well as the Hong Kongers.
Very interesting post, thanks. I didn't realize they were installing an "extra" tube, but I'm not surprised. When I was a kid, the Japanese sold 12 and 14 transistor radios with half or more of the transistors being dummies just soldered to the board. Didn't fool the FTC for long. :)
Looks like the weekend is getting closer; only a few days now until I land in Beijing. I used to hunt for vacuum tubes during my earlier trips, but now I don't bother. Like you say, if it's any good at all, even passably saleable, they export it. All that's left behind are the dregs. Besides, I have way more tubes already than I can ever use. What I really need is the time to build more gear.
I agree completely about buying quality equipment. I do that with photo gear, usually top-line stuff that I pick up second hand. It costs me very little to use it for several years, then sell it for something better. Sometimes on these trips, I even buy a used body for a spare, then sell it when I get back. That usually ends up looking like a $20 rental. :)
Incidentally, I also lived in China about a year. That was back in '96-'97. I was in technical sales at the time, and I traveled quite a bit with clients around the eastern areas; Shanghai, Nanjing, Beijing up to Shenyang. Could tell a few funny stories about lifestyles and culture from those days. Most of my time this trip will be spent in SW China - Kunming, Dalia, etc. My last two attempts to get into that area were thwarted by natural disasters (quake in '08 and massive floods in '10). I'm looking forward to some new photographic experiences if things go better this year. I hear the streets of Shangri-La are paved with gold...
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Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
"Most of my time this trip will be spent in SW China - Kunming, Dalia, etc. My last two attempts to get into that area were thwarted by natural disasters (quake in '08 and massive floods in '10)."Saw today in the news that there's been a large 6.1 quake in SW China. The epicenter was about halfway between Chengdu and Kunming, both of which I visited not more than three weeks ago. Guess I should be thankful I got back to the States in one piece.
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Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
Edits: 08/03/14
If you go to China again, would recommend you plan a layover in Shanghai. It has changed quite a bit in the past 26 years -see link.
Was in The Bund last October, and the view is absolutely stunning. Provided it is on a day the smog will allow it.
I've been to Shangahi several times, the most recent being 2010 when I attended the World Expo. The view from the CCTV tower is astounding; it's a forest of skyscrapers, larger and denser than any city in the US, maybe anywhere in the world. The streets are filled with Caddys, BMWs and Mercedes, and a poor Westerner like me can't even afford to shop in most of the malls. IMO, the absolute best thing to see in Shanghai is the museum. It's first class, one of the best in the world.
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Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
Edits: 06/19/14
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