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In Reply to: RE: we all build amps posted by GSH on April 07, 2014 at 22:44:49
Sure a educated ear is best but when judging amplifier performance one needs a few capable loudspeakers. Since amplifiers interact with loudspeakers load. You yourself posted this (Altec (GPA) 604's in Karlson K-15's, stock horrible XO's.) So I do wonder how you can build a neutral to source amplifier with such limitations and little if no variability in load. I do enjoy Altecs and Karlson but with a ham strung network and the coloration of the resonating k slot baffles your going to have a massive collation to sound character, it can be pleasant but isn't designing with coloration what you complaining others do? So maybe you can clarify since you've got me confused at the contradiction.
Follow Ups:
Let me say, with tongue partially in cheek, "please don't let reality confuse the issue!" **It's more about the intent.
If we build an amplifier that theory tells us will have frequency response aberrations and/or increased harmonic distortion when there's no excuse other than a person with uneducated ears saying "I like the way it *sounds*", at that point it all really does become totally subjective.
An example would be to use a driver stage that can't possibly drive the reactance of the Miller capacitance of the output tube at the higher frequencies and a output tube purposefully operated in a non-linear fashion...either of which would be easy-peasy to "fix" from a technical standpoint.
At that point we're not building with an intent toward neutrality but with the intent to "please" our own "tastes".
A person with an educated ear can, to some degree, ignore his own tastes and try to do his best at being objective as to whether the playback is "neutral" or not.
This is what I mean by intent. If a person is just trying to create a system that pleases his personal tastes, without regard for "neutral to source", then they have a different goal set. A different intent.
** "neutral to source" is a goal that can't be reached. But when we, on purpose, stop trying then we have changed the intent.
I still say the original intent (of this hobby) is to reproduce the recording as faithfully as we can and (at the same time) search for better and better recordings.
We can't do either if we don't take the time to educate our ears first.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 04/10/14
I'm willing to bet that design philosophies and personal biases aside, most of us here would agree on "good" and "bad" sound when they hear it, even if we can't agree on how to achieve it!
IME, all the audio guys I've come across not only agree on "good" and "bad" sound regardless of their background or musical training but could describe what they hear in a manner consistent with what others are also hearing. I've been amazed how well my friends have remembered what they heard of one another's systems and even describe the differences upon hearing the same system many months later following relatively minor tweaks.
I think, it's just that some of us are better trained at pinpointing what's wrong or right with the sound they hear and translating it in a manner that enables it to be improved.
One thing I do know is that there is no limit to how good it can get. Once we have established a new (hopefully better) reference, it is relatively easy to climb to a higher level.
My 2C,
Naz
I'm not really a speaker designer, so far I've just bought a product
that was supposed to be good. Compared to previous junk, it was an improvement. It didn't take long however to find that they had issues too.
The Altecs behave pretty well upto a point, and that's not very loud.
Since I know what they're doing wrong (to some degree) when I go a little louder, I just put up with it, since I have no choice at the moment.
I don't know why I'd what variability in my speaker load, I'm trying to get away from exactly that. My new and first DIY speaker project is almost done, and I went to some trouble to select flatter impedance and response curves in the devises I chose, I hope this will overcome my disappointments with the 604's, we'll see.
I agree that speakers are the weakest link.
The point I was making is that there are a variety of abilities in listening, thinking they're all approaching the same goal set, and they're actually not. Which is fine, but I felt it needed to be called what it is, and the differences spelled out and respected. The hope was to end some of the "declarations" made by some to those who are in a different ball park.
Question about the Karlson speakers, are you running them full range?
I am interested in building a pair of Karlson speakers and using them solely for the bass (50 to 150 or 200 hz). How do you think that they would do in this frequency range?
If you are running them full range, have you thought about providing a midrange speaker (horn or open baffle) and only using the Karlson speakers as bass cabinets.
Is your Karlson cabinet well damped to reduce resonances and cabinet flexing?
Retsel
Yes full range w/ALtec 604. I wouldn't recommend them for LF only, you can do better there. Maybe 60hz on up.
How do your Karlsons sound from 50 or 60 hz up to 200 hz?
Retsel
K15 is an excellent fullrange speaker - he could tune ~1/2 octave lower like Exemplar did using two 3" pvc elbow vents mounted over the nominal 4.5"x9" original vent - the result will support to around 20Hz but won't be any louder than a reflex the rear chamber size with ~28Hz tuning. Another approach would be to make a large "Karlsonator" variant. XRK971 over at Diyaudio can make guesstimates with akabak as to sizing that type.here's the vent mod for k15 - some boost can be applied at 30Hz - Altec 416 works well
here's the layout of an 8 inch Karlsonator
Karlson Evangelist
Edits: 04/16/14
!
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.
OK, yes I have to agree. So room, speakers and then amp, although quality of source is right up there, perhaps surpassing amp in priorities which makes amp last!
Amps are the easiest thing for me to approach, and so guess what happens ?
That said, in the last 2 years I have made large efforts in the other areas,
including moving to a different house that I wouldn't have picked if it didn't have a "great room", and also the collecting of parts and construction of boxes for what will soon be a new speaker system described
already. I can see that I'll have to get into room treatments, bass traps, damping materials etc.. to optimize the room, and I've already started collecting rugs and thick fabrics for walls to do so. I'm still several months away, as the house is still uninhabitable, (I live in the garage, with no tunes, everything in boxes), but I'll be furthering this process today! And tomorrow! and...
What if the sound is 'greater' than the room, ie. it is so dynamic, dense and deep that it effectively removes the room from the equation as the room impact is not sufficient to impose itself on the music.
Whenever I play music now it behaves as though it 'exists' in the here and now and doesn't appear to follow the room acoustics. I believe it is all about directness and presence, density whatever you want to call it. Everything fresh, alive and present, not some historical artefact.
I put this down to two avenues I've pursued, one is creating a whole house power conditioner following Alan Maher's principals of conditioning everything in the home rather than just one isolated audio power strip. The other you may have guessed is my building an amp with the help of JM and DF.
Just an observation and room for thought. Or am I deluded?
Smart845
> > > I believe it is all about directness and presence, density whatever you want to call it. Everything fresh, alive and present, not some historical artefact. < < <
Sounds like you are less interested in recreating a facsimile of the "original" acoustic space and more about bringing the musicians to you - emphasising the music rather than the space in which it was performed.
Enjoy.
“As long as we have any intention to be right… we should be wary. So long as words have the slightest ego attachment, they are dishonest.” Charlotte Joko Beck
Yes, that's what I like. A performance for me in my room, to form an emotional bond with the artist and performance. How many times do I cry when listening to music? Too many to count.
I don't want a 'history' lesson, don't want to be taken back to an earlier time like Woodstock live, I want it here and now. A time machine.
Sounds like you had a great evening too and if you haven't heard it yet try SOHN, Tremors, it's on Qobuz and is similar to James Blake/Milosh.
Cheers
Yeah, had a fab night - it is pretty common here, just enjoying music.
I am guessing you read my post before I deleted and re-posted. I had a few things to say, but have decided not to... but for context will repeat some of what was in the deleted post:
Yesterday, I listened to Tycho, Burial, Washed Out, Wild Nothing, Susan Vega, The Raveonettes, Four Tet, and Olafur Arnalds. I pulled down an amp and thought about its rebuild. I drank craft beer and cooked and ate pulled pork. Not once did I think about an objective reference (I have seen Olafur live) or about audio quality or whether what I was doing/ hearing was valid. I simply enjoyed the music and the broader experience for what it was. Hey, I even railed and laughed at Britain and Ireland’s Next Top Model with my partner. It was a fun day.
Perhaps I am not an audiophile - that's fine, I have never defined myself as one.
Cheers.
“As long as we have any intention to be right… we should be wary. So long as words have the slightest ego attachment, they are dishonest.” Charlotte Joko Beck
!
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.
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