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In Reply to: RE: tube amplifier for classical music,large orchestr. posted by Milan.Albert@intelsoft.sk on March 23, 2014 at 10:13:49
I'm always perplexed by threads like this. I'm a musician, conservatoire trained, and played in orchestras and small groups (jazz etc) for most of my life. When I read that orchestral music is about weight, dynamics and scale this just isn't the reality for me. I think it's delusional to try and fit an orchestra or anything like it into a small sitting room.
But what it is possible to do is to reproduce a different reality - the tone and acoustic realism of the instruments. The woody quality of a clarinet, the shimmer on a cymbal, the breathiness of a flute, the distinctive tone of a Steinway or a Bechstein. These things you can preserve almost intact, and for smaller groups like string quartets and jazz combos you can actually get a pretty good sense of realism. And anyway, orchestral music isn't fortissimo tuttis most of the time - a lot of it is the particular tone of winds playing together, a solo cello, a quartet of horns and so on.
So what I try to do in my system is to do what I can realistically do - recreate the tone and timbre of each instrument so at least that's a constant source of delight. And when you include the voice I have no doubt in my own mind that the ideal is a single ended amplifier with no feedback - could be tube or solid state such as SIT amps. But as Paul Joppa says, not easy to put this into practice without sensitive speakers. For more watts you can go parallel single ended with 300b, use high voltage tubes like 845 etc. It's possible but the amplifiers become more complex and more costly.
The alternative is to give up on sensitive speakers and SETs and use less sensitive speakers. I'd make an equally good case for starting with panel speakers - full range ribbons like Apogees, Maggies and so on. To me nothing recreates an orchestra with all its subtle tone and detail like a big panel speaker. In that case the amplifier needs to supply power, so you're in the realm of PP amps, bigger solid state amps and so on. A good example is the Nagra PP 845 monobloks - they're really good if you find a pair. Or something like it.
Both alternatives will give the kind of tone and timbre that - to me at least - is indispensable in reproducing acoustic classical instruments. Clarity and timbre is achievable. A Mahler symphony in your living room...........
Follow Ups:
"I think it's delusional to try and fit an orchestra or anything like it into a small sitting room."This is where a nearfield setup, where the soundstage is totally decoupled from the room, is the only way to attain such scenario.... I did this sort of thing back in college to great effect..... Although it was not exactly a system that performed well outside the listening "sweet spot".
"And when you include the voice I have no doubt in my own mind that the ideal is a single ended amplifier with no feedback - could be tube or solid state such as SIT amps. But as Paul Joppa says, not easy to put this into practice without sensitive speakers."
Although there are a select few push-pull amps that might do justice with 90 dB efficient speakers, I think going high-efficiency, roughly 96 dB minimum, just opens up so many more options for amplification. It is otherwise so difficult to get the dynamics of an orchestra right, due to the fact you can only get so much out of an AC mains outlet. (You can get a lot of power out of that outlet, but at the expense of "dynamic linearity".) I've rarely heard 100 WPC driving 90 dB efficient speakers with "dynamic linearity" like I've heard 8 single-ended WPC driving 100 dB efficient speakers.
I don't think dynamics and tone are mutually exclusive. In fact, if the tone is lost, it's probably due to the dynamics perceived as "exaggerated" relative to the real thing. For the higher distortion during dynamic swells/peaks will make them seem "louder" than they should be. (Or in other words, if the music "blasts" during loud passages, the dynamics are not quite there, in regard to linearity.) IMO, this is the most common failing in home sound reproduction, and the most frustrating part of home sound reproduction to get right.
Edits: 03/25/14
Todd, your comments regarding tone and dynamic linearity are consistent with my experiences also, though I had not really thought about it.I agree that dynamics and tone are not mutually exclusive; however, accurate tone at live levels in a domestic environment might be. Well, it is at least challenging, expensive... and undesirable in my case. I don't want a system that sounds balanced at live levels then lifeless and lean at levels I normally listen.
My preferences are for ease, musical flow, nuance, convincing tone and vitality... up to a volume level I might listen to a couple of times a year but, but not live levels. This is achievable in a domestic environment using simple systems comprising lowish power SET amps and well-designed efficient speakers.
Thanks for the contribution.
Edits: cleaned up test for improved clarity; added a missing "not"!
“As long as we have any intention to be right… we should be wary. So long as words have the slightest ego attachment, they are dishonest.” Charlotte Joko Beck
Edits: 03/29/14
From what I've heard (and reproduced live music, quite often I go to opera and symphonic concerts), I do not think dynamics and tone are mutually exclusive. In my opinion the aim of music reproduction is the most faithful approximation of live music in all audio parameters. Last time I heard my reference Prokofiev LP Decca SXL-6620-2 through expensive tube amp + expensive speakers, dynamics were much worse than via my several times cheaper apparatus, as seemed to me that I listen to other LP, music that does not have the dynamics bores me.
Very good site about reproduction of Music are: http://www.high-endaudio.com/ .
I will sometimes inspire by them, I am grateful to the creator for it.
Milan
It is good to hear someone with music minded understanding of reproduction, for a change. Most musicians I know appreciate tone more than push-your-chest-in kick drums. Couldn't agree more!
Andy Evans, your contribution and recommendation is useful for my choice of amp.
I am choosing amp already approx. 3 months, and I already have in the confusion. I originally thought about Class A solid state amp (probably from Pass Laboratories), then about single ended tube amp - Antique Sound Leyla or Opera Consonance Reference 5.5 (300B in parallel single ended, 18W), ... - they probably have little power to 90 db speaker. According to this thread I now considering a push-pull amplifier in Class A with zero feedback. I prefer listening to symphonies and orchestral works by Shostakovich Stravinsky, Tchaikovsky, Mahler, Bruckner, ... and they are very dynamic and need to listen to loud enough.
Milan
Nt
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