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In Reply to: RE: Coincident Frankenstein II schematic diagram... posted by danlaudionut on March 21, 2014 at 03:57:19
It's very interesting reading these posts about an amplifier I've owned for 4 and1/2 years and absolutely have enjoyed immensely. I lack the technical background to contribute to this current discussion. What ever Israel Blume did in designing/building the Frankenstein MK II he certainly has exceptional ears IMO. This is one very fine sounding and superbly natural 300b SET amplifier. I can honestly say that it's one of the best amplifiers I've personally experienced. I'll continue to follow this thread and gain some knowledge. His 101D DHT Line stage is excellent sounding as well.
Charles,
Follow Ups:
Charles
I have followed the Frankenstein for years,
as I do not have the money to buy one,
I have played with posibilities of the design.
My "upgrades" do nothing to the operating points
as I believe many say they are voiced quite well.
Increasing C10 to 22uFd will decrease the noise on the first stage.
The 1.5V NiMh will remove an electrolytic from the signal path.
Increasing C3 to at least 100uFd will firm up the bottom end.
Actually all three will benefit the bottom 1/2 octave.
DanL
.
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Hello Dan,
Your suggestions for improving the bass is ironic as this is one of the Frankenstein's strengths in comparison to many other SET amplifiers. I don't doubt your wisdom as truly anything can be improved. This amplifier's greatest quality IMO is the natural tone and sense of a living breathing tactile presence. There's much emotion and soul in the music conveyed, the antithesis of hifi.I think you'd like what it does.
Hi Drlowmu,
Those AVVT 32b SL you sold to me via Dennis Fraker are sounding beautiful in my Frankenstein. Your comments on the chokes in this amplifier and the transformer spacing could be right, I wouldn't know (above my head) . The final sonic result is impressive to say the least.
Certainly I am glad you are pleased to have those tubes. Honestly, I believe you've never really heard what the AVVT 32B ( or what any Finals tube for that matter ) can ultimately do.The low end of any amp using a 10HY 100 Ohm choke is no-doubt playing a DEEP low end, but its all sadly out-of-time with the true pace of the music, and in comparison to what could be had - and what was recorded.
You are consistently hearing the music's low end in the "time-frame of a sluggish choke", it is skewed, and NOT in the time frame of the music.
Amps using 100 Ohm chokes are not even mid fidelity. 20 Ohms or less is Hi Fi and 10 Ohms or less is Ultra Hi Fi !!
The very first thing my high fidelity mentor Bob Fulton ( 1925-1988, trumpeter and choir director ) told me about amp building was (1) That you design the power supply FIRST and (2) "That chokes need to be 20 Ohms or less in DCR." This 20 Ohms or less hasn't changed in thirty plus years of me seriously A-Bing this, and it never will !!!
I just today re-read Thorsten Loesch's early article on SE amp design, and guess what DCR number he proposed as being "ideal" for a Power Supply? You got it, in his article he computed, came up with this : "20 Ohms". ( He makes other minor errors about supplies IMHO, but make no mistake, T.L. is really GOOD !!) I think that is hilarious. Fulton, Fraker, Loesch, and Medwin.... whistleing a similar tune !! Dennis intuitively understands ( and executes ) it best of all IMHO.
I hope my comments are unambiguous enough for any and all who read it.
Try to disprove this, you won't and you can't !! We have such amplifier examples existing today, some better than others, both DIY and commercial.Get "with it" friends. Be there - or be Square.
Jeff Medwin
Edits: 03/23/14 03/23/14
Drlowmu,
I respect your strong opinion and I don't possess the technical credentials to debate on the merits of the choke in question. As someone who hears live acoustic music very regularly (jazz clubs) I'm intimately familiar with musical pace, timing and flow. Theories aside the Frankenstein is superb in this domain. Be it Monk, Basie, Ellington, Coltrane or whoever there's beautiful musical bass that's wonderfully integrated. Sluggish or ill timing? Not in the least. I've been fortunate to have heard many amplifiers both SET and push pull ovrr the years. I'll place the Frankenstein among the upper most tier.
Best Regards,
Hi,
I also TOTALLY believe you and your listening experiences !! Listening like you do is more important than technical knowledge.
The only divide I can see between us is, that you have probably never heard the type of amp and supply I am discussing, so you don't quite grasp what I am talking about with your actual experience.
I have extensively heard both types of amps and supplies, so it is easier for me to offer an experienced description.
Jeff Medwin
Hi Drlowmu,
I only referenced live acoustic jazz as I hear it so often and it's my template for true and natural sound (what's better than that). My ears have become calibrated to this over many years (plus we have a piano in our home). How ever it accomplishes it the Frankenstein gets closer to this live sound than any other so far. Tone, timing, rhythm, on and on. I'd be curious to hear the amps you're referring to and determine if I'm missing something. As of now it is musically fabulous and quite involving.
Thanks,
Hello,I can see you really THINK you have it all covered. But you don't.
Its time, this summer, for you to visit Yellowstone National Park with your family, and also drag your amps and program material over to Dennis Frakers' place in Livingston, MT, so you can hear what I am alluding to.
Jeff Medwin
Edits: 03/25/14
.
----------
Tin-eared audiofool, large-scale-Classical music lover, and damned-amateur fotografer.
William Bruce Cameron: "...not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted."
Jeff,
I have the Coincident Total Eclipse II (with Duelund CAST capacitor on the tweeter). 94db and 14 ohms load, the amp drives these very effortlessly. I also have the Coincident Statement Line stage, the synergy of the three siblings is superb.
Hi,
The amps being discussed are very good and and also priced reasoanbly, they are certainly not the last word in the SET world, nor they are at the technology forefront of what can be done to a 300b amplifiers to max their sound potential.
If interested you can do a research in the Tube DIY or various other sites. Reading people like Dclowmu and his passion on power supplies, layout, wiring and parts selection can be very interesting and entertaining (taking everything with a grain of salt please!). He and a few other people actually got non-tech guy like me interested in DIY and started to build my own amplifiers, and Im glad I did because my amps now (adopted a lot of things discussed & tried by those more seasoned DIY veterans) sound a lot better than the commercial products of the famous brands i used to own and have listened to. In a general having no price point marketing as the limiting design factor, people can build way better 300b amps than the average commercially available products (your amps included).
So if you want to further your horizon and do not wish (like me) to burn a few tens of thousand bucks at a time with the latest amps reviewed in the magazines, then consider DIY. I wouldn't say it will be less costly in the long run (its actually cost me alot more to DIY) but its alot more fun and the best thing for me has been to escape from the shitty brainwash marketing of the magazine and online review sites. Knowing what options availble that sound good to me and get to build and enjoy them myself cannot be bad.
Just some thoughts.
Vincin,
Fair points you introduce. I've notice on forums like this there's often a pro DIY slant, the DIY guys do it better than the commercial builders. I'm in cline to believe yes in some examples and no in others. I'll never claim my Coincident SET is the best ever (how could this be verified anyway?) but it has served me extremely well and I'm grateful for that. It brings music to life and is superbly natural. I'd loved to hear your amp and the Serious Stereo amp as well. I don't know that you or Dennis Fraker are any more or less talented than Israel Blume, everyone has their own opinion and bias. If I could hear these three compared I'm sure it would be enlightening and also fun.Vincin what aspects of your SET do you find superior to the Frankenstein and did you actually compare them? Thanks much,
Charles,
Um... Maybe I should have put it like this: it is relatively not difficult to diy an 300b SET amplifier which can be on par with any commercial amplifier available outthere. And once got to this level having accumulated just enough technical background and diy skills, a new horizon of options and opportunities open up to the builder to take the sound of his system to a completely new level that is tailored made to the builder's own taste and that is very difficult to achieve with the commercial gears.Of course Im not good at this. Thats why Im still reading those guys over the diy forum, learn and try a thing or two at a time. Some of these people are really as advanced as any gurus in the industry like the gentlemen you named.
Never meant this to be a my amp is better than your thingy. I heard the mono blocks in discussion here. I stated that they were very good and were very reasonably priced. But they can definitely be improved upon. Ideas can be found all over the other forums. Do the manufacturer knows these, of course they know but they have got to make product that sells. The amps you have must be one of the better efforts from the manufacturing and marketing perspectives.
In fact the amps Im listenning to at home are somewhat similar to yours in that they are mono block utilising an interstage transformer to couple the driver valve to the output. However, there is only 2 amplifying stages, a triode wired pentode valve and the 300b (more to do with taste rather than being technically superior to your 3-stage all triode amp). The power supply is hugely over-spe'd, choke input LCLC filter for HV supply, separate filament transformers for 300b filament feeding a choke input LCL filament supply. The Interstage transformers and OPT are some of the best that I could lay my hands on. The other boutique parts like capacitors, resistors and silver wiring I also use but they are just icing on the cake and wont impact sound significantly.
Recently Im experimenting with different bias arrangement, and beginning to understand the importance of good layout and wiring and how the circuits interact. Im gonna make new chasis and build my linestage and amplifier from scratch again. I know a lot of people are more or less on the same journey. It has been alot of fun.
I say all this is because when I see people raving about their gears using audio magazine invented terms and expressions, i just feel the urge to make a sound that there are different options out there and relying on certain manufacturers to make certain choices for you may not be the best choice in this hobby. A few years ago I thought about my Audio Note amplifers the same like you think right now. Still with due respect to the said brand, I think very differently these days, I no longer slave my needs to certain commercial brands, products amd reviewer's opinion. And to me I enjoy this hobby much more because of that.
Cheers.
Edits: 03/25/14
Hi,
You speak to the heart of the matter. This IS a DIY audio forum. It IS possible, and really a lot of fun, for DIYers to make really good amps !! Like you, I am a NON EE type of guy.
My take on a 300B amp was to use a AVVT 32B and do a two stage ( of course!!) with a 12BZ7 direct coupled into the Finals, and it had a LOW DCR modern supply, all iron under 10 Ohms, including the custom power transformer.
The amp unfortunately did NOT power my intended load ( FMI 80s ) so I sold the AVVT 32Bs and converted the amps to 2A3s, used higher efficiency speakers.
I enjoyed your posts sir !!
Jeff Medwin
Vincin,
You're obviously very proud of and pleased with your amplifier and that's sincerely a good outcome. I agree there's no reason to make this a my amp vs your amp issue, that is a waste of time. Yep, I'm quite happy with my amplifier and if there are some other SET amps that are better, then that's more good news. I'm not sure what is meant by "invented terms". In audio the vernacular by nature is descriptive and expressive and most folks will understand the attempted communication. It's fair to say our respective amplifiers are serving us very well. As for me that's the desired goal. I've come accept that no matter what you own someone is out there to say what they have is
even better and so it goes. I imagine that your amplifier sounds wonderful.
Regards,
Charles,
Edits: 03/25/14 03/25/14
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