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In Reply to: RE: If the speakers were mine I think I would be more inclined posted by bwb on April 05, 2012 at 07:59:33
Bwb
You are definitely showing how little you know.
I dare you to listen to music at a volume level
where the 5KHz and above energy is 5 watts.
After you are deaf, maybe then you may realize
the red herrings and mis-information you are spewing.
I amsaying that you don't need to use as many watts
as you seem to think to get the music to be loud.
I run my 90dB/m system with 5 watts above 200Hz
and I can get my neighbors to complain about the
loudness of my stereo as well as shake the house.
Also SS amps are known not to have a good 1st watt
so even that arguement is just foolish.
I have to wonder what you are even doing here since
the benefits that tubes bring to the listeners
you have already dissed as a red herring.
DanL
Follow Ups:
,
"I dare you to listen to music at a volume level where the 5KHz and above energy is 5 watts."
Ok, I now see where this is going. You distort my position and then try to make it look like I said it. Your statement implies 5W continuously which is a straw man, but what you conveniently ignore is dynamic headroom which your 5W tube amp simply won't have into 88dB speakers.
You are the misguided one as you seem to only be able to focus on one thing, how loud it is. If you want to confuse the situation by just focusing on irritating your neighbors with how loud it is then there is nothing else to say. I can deafen you with a pair of earbuds and an iPod playing MP3 files but that also isn't related to the discussion.
I also see you have clouded the picture by throwing in the part about the first watt. That has absolutely nothing to do with this. Why bring it up? I use very low power tube amps so I understand what is going on, but I also understand that you need to use highly efficient speakers like my 107 dB pair, not 88 dB if you want dynamics. Do you really think your 5W recommendation is a good one? Do you really mean to embarrass yourself by saying that a 5W SET on the tweeters will be capable of the same dynamics as the 160W OTL amps he has on the mids?
I'm not saying you always need a lot of power like you tried to imply I did, but if you really need 50 - 200W of SS then 5W of tube is not enough. To argue otherwise shows either a lack of understanding of the fundamental concepts or a huge ego unable to admit they are wrong. If the former it is hopeless since you will never be able to understand and if the latter it is equally as hopeless since you are unable to admit an error.
I see you didn't even try to refute my position that a tube amp in this situation would be compressing and clipping so there is no need for further discussion.
Enjoy the distortion while I enjoy the headroom on my system. Good day.
.
Edits: 04/05/12
Guys,
The difference is the frequency of the harmonic distortion provided by a SS device compared the Thermonic device (Valves).
Valves tend to be closer to the root. SS throw more power into the higher harmonics while Tubes provide more lower harmonics.
This argument is just more mental masturbation which is getting very boring...on this forum...
Get over it and "Just Listen"
Stuben
> > you conveniently ignore is dynamic headroom
> > which your 5W tube amp simply won't have
> > into 88dB speakers.
I am saying at any decent listening kevel
5Wrms is plenty for a 88dB tweeter.
> > focusing on irritating your neighbors with
?? how loud it is then there is ... that also
> > isn't related to the discussion.
The discussion is is 5W enough for an 88dN tweeer.
It IS relevent and pertenent to the discussion.
> > clouded the picture by throwing in the part
> > about the first watt.
You posted "A clean watt is a clean watt and
distortion is bad" and everyone knows the
first watt is the most important watt because
that is where most of the music is.
> > I also understand that you need to use
> > highly efficient speakers like my 107 dB pair,
> > not 88 dB if you want dynamics.
First that is just plain snobbery.
Second I have not heard one high efficient speaker
that I liked the sound of long term.
They are hard and not very flat on the response curve.
(IMO because of their lack of dampening)
> > by saying that a 5W SET on the tweeters
> > will be capable of the same dynamics as
> > the 160W OTL amps he has on the mids?
I am saying that it is way overkill.
By the same reasoning a 1000 Watt amp
would have even better dynamics.
These are not dynamics that you will ever use.
Well maybe if you were in a concert hall
and you were 100 feet away and then maybe.
> > but if you really need 50 - 200W of SS
That is the "Red Herring"!
When you start with a given that is wrong
then your whole arguement is wrong.
that shows your "lack of understanding".
> > a tube amp in this situation would
> > be compressing and clipping
I can play my system so loud I can't stay
in the room but there is no hard clipping
it is just too loud for me to remain there.
So at more normal listening levels there
would be no compressing let alone clipping.
I assumed you could infer this conclusion
from my post but I was wrong.
Sorry for giving you too much credit.
DanL
Saxguy, please accept my apology for this silly diversion. If I had known what a true "nut" this guy really is I never would've engaged him. Ultimately it is up to you to decide, go with the manufacturer's recommendation of 50-200W, a manufacturer who has a vested interest in making the best recommendations he can to make his speaker sound the best that it can, or that of a self proclaimed nut who says that 5 W is enough for 88 DB speaker.
Good luck with it.
Dan L is one of the most respected posters on this forum. If you haven't worked that out yet it's not surprising you still think you need 200 watts on a tweeter, which is just plain nuts.
Anyway, what's happened to your curiosity - don't you listen to other people?
Andy
....I have always enjoyed reading danlaudionut's post, they have been very helpful to me. He is what our passion of music and audio gear is all about. Thanks Andy and thank you danlaudionut. Keep them post coming.
.
I said it was a good idea to consider following the manufacturer's recommendations. I said a low power SET was likely to compress and clip on an 88 dB speaker. I never said you needed 200W for a tweeter.
As for respect, how did you determine that? I've watched him argue endlessly about ideas that are simply wrong. If you challenge anything he says he typically responds with diversions and/or straw man arguments like he did in this thread; like you just did by claiming I believed the tweeter needs 200W.
He may be a prolific poster and a tenacious one but until they come up with a rating system his respect level other than from you is merely a guess on your part. Let me educate you a bit on the posting habits of people like the Nut. When proven wrong they resort to several tried and true tactics.
1. Never admit you are wrong, either go away or resort to one or more of the tactics below.
2. Ignore the original premise like it never existed. I pointed out that a clipping 5W tube amp was a bad thing because of distortion and compression, he never spoke to that.
3. Create a straw man, take something the other fellow said out of context and attack him as if he said, like you saying I thought the tweeter needed 200W.
4. Throw in a fact completely unrelated to the original premise and accuse your opponent of being ignorant of it. The Nut did this by introducing the idea of the first watt being the most important.
5. Create a diversion by disparaging your opponents comments. He accused me of not knowing about SET amps and I pointed out I had low power amps and highly efficient speakers. He then attacked me by calling me a snob.
6. Create a diversion by going off topic. He did that by talking about how loud his system can play and talking about how he didn't like highly efficient speakers.
You see, never once did he speak to the compression and distortion cause by a clipping amp. A classic internet exchange.
.
,
.
BWB
I wasn't going to respond but decided to anyway.
1. Never admit you are wrong
14 Times I admitted I was wrong, see these links -
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/search.mpl?searchtext=stand+corrected&b=AND&topic=&topics_only=N&author=danlaudionut&date1=&date2=&slowmessage=&sort=score&sortOrder=DESC&forum=tubes
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/search.mpl?searchtext=stand+corrected&b=AND&topic=&topics_only=N&author=danlaudionut&date1=&date2=&slowmessage=&sort=score&sortOrder=DESC&forum=tubediy
2. I pointed out that a clipping 5W tube amp was a bad thing
because of distortion and compression, he never spoke to that.
I posted -
"I can play my system so loud I can't stay
in the room but there is no hard clipping
it is just too loud for me to remain there.
So at more normal listening levels there
would be no compressing let alone clipping."
Which means "I spoke to that".
3. Create a straw man, take something the other fellow said out of context and attack him as if he said, like you saying I thought the tweeter needed 200W.
I never said that so don't attribute that to me.
4. Throw in a fact completely unrelated to the original premise and accuse your opponent of being ignorant of it. The Nut did this by introducing the idea of the first watt being the most important.
You posted -
The bottom line is that a clean watt is a clean watt
And I replied that the first watt is the most important
because the Original Post was -
"I'm toying with the idea of using a SET on the tweeters
to get the last bit of air and detail."
THAT means he wants the best First Watt.
5. He accused me of not knowing about SET amps and I pointed out I had low power amps and highly efficient speakers. He then attacked me by calling me a snob.
I posted -
"You are definitely showing how little you know."
Then I descibed that I know from experience that
you don't need that much power for a tweeter.
I never said anything about SETs.
And I posted -
"First that is just plain snobbery."
I never said you were a snob just that
the statement you just made was snobbery.
Because you posted -
"I also understand that you need to use highly efficient speakers like my 107 dB pair, not 88 dB if you want dynamics."
So the ONLY way to get dynamics is your way.
THAT dear sir IS snobbery.
6. Create a diversion by going off topic. He did that by talking about how loud his system can play and talking about how he didn't like highly efficient speakers.
IF a system can play very loud without obvious clipping
then at normal levels compression is not an issue.
Take a look at these response curves -
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/FE126E_files/Fostex_FE126E_spl_2.83V.jpg
http://www.bcspeakers.com/PRD/GRP/138.jpg
http://www.cmhaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/16inch_1watt.gif
THAT is why I don't like highly efficient speakers.
You may not but I do hear that.
You posted -
You see, never once did he speak to the compression
and distortion cause by a clipping amp.
Because I don't have it on my system.
I have 5 watts to my mids and tweeters
and don't have any clipping or compression.
I cannot comment on my clipping or compression
when I don't have any to comment on.
You want me to admit to something that
isn't happening to justify your position?
DanL
.
OK, I admit my post with all of the diversion tactics was tongue in cheek, pretty funny really if you think about it but more on target than off..
The whole debate has become tiresome so I don't care to debate the minutia of it but here's the bottom line; the crux of my position.
You said that a 5W amp was OK because when it clipped it was not offensive (paraphrased).
I said and still maintain that any clipping is not acceptable.
What I really find curious is you say your system can play so loudly that you can't stand to be in the room with it but you are confident it doesn't clip? In my experience a system that plays cleanly and loudly can be tolerated much more than a system that plays loudly but distorts.
Which is yours? How do you know?
.
DanL
.so back to square one, you took a position that was clearly wrong and have ignored it to the bitter end. I tried to throw you a bone so you could graciously get out of the corner you backed yourself into and now you call me a liar? I will repeat the facts so we are all clear there was no lying on my part. So I repeat........
You said that a 5W amp was OK because when it clipped it was not offensive (paraphrased).I said and still maintain that any clipping is not acceptable.
What I really find curious is you say your system can play so loudly that you can't stand to be in the room with it but you are confident it doesn't clip? In my experience a system that plays cleanly and loudly can be tolerated much more than a system that plays loudly but distorts.
Which is yours? How do you know?
drum rollllllllllllllllllllllllll and I'm out of here.
Edits: 04/08/12
Bwb
> > you took a position that was clearly wrong
> > and have ignored it to the bitter end.
I have (as well as others) proved YOU are wrong.
You are the one ignoring it.
> > now you call me a liar?
I have proven point by point that
your claims are lies.
> > You said that a 5W amp was OK because
> > when it clipped it was not offensive
Paraphrased by ...
Completely misstating my position.
I am saying there is no clipping.
> > I said and still maintain that
> > any clipping is not acceptable.
I agree and also stipulate the there is
no compressing also at normal listening levels.
> > In my experience a system that plays cleanly
> > and loudly can be tolerated much more than
> > a system that plays loudly but distorts.
I never could tolerate loud music and that is
why I never went to those loud concerts - EVER.
Also why I still have hearing above 20KHz.
I am very sensitive to cone distortion, resonances
and other driver irregularities and that is why
I can't stand high efficiency drivers and metal domes.
Clipping would be one of those things that
I would be able to hear without a doubt.
> > drum rollllllllllllllllll and I'm out of here
Fine and don't come back.
Trolls like you, will not be missed.
DanL
Let me educate you a bit on the posting habits of people like the Nut> >
I'm just finishing off my 6th textbook on psychology which is coming out next year. I leave it up to you to guess whether I need you to educate me on how people behave.
andy
.
OK, I'm all ears; educate me.
Since you imply you already saw through his diversionary tactics what else can you share with us?
Interesting that a trained psychologist such as yourself fabricated the 200W straw man. How do you explain that?
.
I don't need to explain anything. You wouldn't listen anyway since you're one of those guys who thinks he's always right.
When it's you against the rest of the world, back the rest of the world....
.
I will readily admit a mistake. If you go to the top of the thread I explained why I now feel 5W is adequate. Not that it was a mistake. It was an opinion based on bad information but now that we have more information I have no problem revising my position.
I can now add another diversion tactic to my list to use when you don't have a valid response.
7. Clam up and say "I don't need to explain anything." This is a classic. It implies that you are somehow superior to the other person while avoiding having to actually back up what you said earlier.
Feel free to use that in your next book.
.
Many of us use online communities like this for the fellowship of good hearted people round the world who enrich our daily experience with their thoughts and warm humour.
To make communities like this work you need empathy. If you want to put your wonderful brain to some use besides creating ridiculous arguments, put it to the task of finding something that will double a person's capacity for empathy. The world will thank you for it.
andy
.You are on a roll. Another classic internet debate diversion.
8. Avoid having to answer direct questions by pretending to take the high road. Spew some philosophical psychobabble which will make you look
intellectually superior while at the same time insulting your opponent.
Ridiculous arguments? About what? My stance was and has consistently been that a clipping amplifier is a bad thing. You find that ridiculous?
Still waiting to hear your professional analysis of why you used a straw man. I get the feeling you will either never respond or continue to ignore the question. Feel free to refer back to my list of diversions you can use to avoid answering.
drum rollllllllllllllllllllllllll and I'm out of here
.
Edits: 04/08/12
Andy
Thanks
I needed that 8^D
DanL
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