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In Reply to: RE: Why ?.............................. posted by twystd on June 25, 2009 at 11:32:40

The hum may not bug some folks, but it bugs me. Read the following. Written when most audio was 2 prong plugs.
Figure 1. Ground loop involving line cords.
Both the preamp and power amp are equipped with 3 wire line cords and 3 prong plugs. (Note: this is almost unheard of in home audio equipment. This example is given for illustration purposes only). The green wire in each line cord is connected to the chassis of each unit. The ground prong of each plug connects to the local power ground. The two chassis' are also connected together by the shields of the audio cable. The audio cables are much longer than indicated in the diagram.
The shaded area shows the ground loop. As you can see there is a continuous loop from the preamp chassis to the power amp through the audio cable shields, from the power amp through the grounding wire of the line cord to the wall socket, and from the wall socket to the preamp chassis.
The two shields of the stereo audio cable are held so close together for most of their length that they rarely contribute any significant interference.
What can be done?
In the case of Figure 1.
You might try grounding the two chassis' together with very heavy wire in an attempt to short out the induced voltage. The added wire will just create another loop unless you place it physically very close to the audio cable. Even if you do that all you will succeed in doing will be to reduce the volume of the hum but it will still be audible.
You might also try bringing the line cords close together and close to the audio cable but most likely all you will accomplish will be to increase the hum. You will place AC carrying conductors into close proximity with the audio cables thus inducing more hum than you are getting rid of.
The only sure way is to break the loop. Cutting the shields on the audio cable rarely works with unbalanced inputs. There will always be a potential difference between the two chassis' even though they are grounded to the power line ground. The reason is that the grounding wire gets a current induced in it because it is in such close proximity to the current carrying conductors of the line cord. If this were a real situation, the only solution would be to somehow disconnect the power line ground from one of the chassis'. This is not approved by electrical inspectors and fortunately doesn't need to be done in home stereo equipment.Cut-Throat
.
If you have a power amp with a 3 prong plug and a pre-amp with a 3 prong plug you have a ground loop. Whether your hearing is good enough to hear it or it doesn't bug you is another topic.
I have 104 db Klipshorn/Altec speakers, and I can hear hum on them without the grounds lifted. I have studied this problem for 5 years and unless you use isolation transformers (which are not cheap and may compromise other parts of your system) lifting the ground is the ONLY way to totally eliminate the problem. If there was a cheaper more effective way to completely eliminate ground loop hum, I would have done it long ago. Other than using a passive pre-amp (which I own, but doesn't sound as good)
The other bottom line is an Electrical Inspector will tell you that a circuit with GFCI protection and a 3 prong device with the ground lifted is a safer situation than a non GFCI circuit with a 3 prong plug intact. So before you chastise a lifted ground with GFCI protection, please lobby everyone to install GFCI protection on their stereo circuits. I am not sure why lifting the ground raises hackles on people like it does, but it certainly does!
If we really wanted to be completely safe we wouldn't want to use electricity at all. Or even think about driving a car! Let's keep lifting a ground in perspective.
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Cut-Throat
Do you really think all of us that don't have ground loop problems, are just putting up with it, or have defective hearing?? I guess your equipment is the summit of perfection, and if it has problem so does everyone else's.....jeeze!
You've talked to an electrical inspector that has proved the Peter Principle, that you get promoted to your own level of incompetency. It depends if the fault happened while I was in physical contact with the device, then a GFCI would be best, as it would trip before a fuse would blow, or circuit breaker would throw. However if the fault happened while the device was operating, but I wasn't in physical contact, I'd prefer the three wire system, as it would trip as soon as the fault happened, without me providing the path to ground, and suffering the 6ma shock.
Without the three wire system, a device under fault just sets at it's faulty electrical potential, until presented with a path to ground, and that could be you. This is why the three wire system was adopted in the first place. With the GFCI, hopefully you'd be exposed to only the theoretical 6ma short duration shock, and you don't have a pacemaker, underlying heart condition, or your three year old didn't stick his tongue on it!;-)
twystd
Not only is the 3-prong system necessary for safety-- the GFCI units SOUND BAD...... very bad.
In a practical system, we're going to have 3-prong wiring on every component.
It is up to the installer to arrange all of these 3-prong connections AND WIRING LENGTHS and PLACEMENTS so that ground-loop problems are minimized.
Equipment is not safe, nor is it necessarily going to sound "better" with grounds "lifted".
Keep the grounds, and learn how to use them properly.
---Dennis---
Hi Dennis,
"Keep the grounds, and learn how to use them properly."
AMEN....
Dave
nt
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Cut-Throat
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