- "Real blues men don't use pitch correction......" - Really? - Audiophilander 22:28:03 06/29/09
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- In Reply to: RE: Joe Bonamassa worth a listen. posted by Todd Krieger on June 29, 2009 at 18:02:05
;O)
- I Have To Admit......... - Todd Krieger 23:08:18 06/29/09
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- In Reply to: RE: "Real blues men don't use pitch correction......" - Really? posted by Audiophilander on June 29, 2009 at 22:28:03
You're pretty creative....... Blue Man Group would have never crossed my mind....... [-;
Seriously, I sampled four live videos..... I mean, he uses the application in concert settings........
I ended up taking in some Clapton and BB King............
- Where does he use it?. . . - John PA 03:55:55 06/30/09
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- In Reply to: RE: I Have To Admit......... posted by Todd Krieger on June 29, 2009 at 23:08:18
In a way I don't care, it can all be part of the creative process but I would like to understand where he is using it. Thanks.
The Elaborate DAC=Johnny's Balloon Meshplate 27 Balanced Preamp=Balanced Six Pacs=Newform Research 645
iRiver H140/120gb/iBasso D10 or very modified Woo 6/Ultrasone Ed. 9
see images at: www.pbase.com/jamato8
- RE: Where does he use it?. . . - Todd Krieger 11:22:02 06/30/09
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- In Reply to: RE: Where does he use it?. . . posted by John PA on June 30, 2009 at 03:55:55
"In a way I don't care, it can all be part of the creative process but I would like to understand where he is using it. Thanks."
AuPh's embedded video happens to have a blatant application of it..... If I come across a video where he does not use it, I'll point it out for clarification. (Too bad it's almost impossible to find an example of non-use by artists who apparently use it all the time.)
Pitch correction has become so widespread in popular music, I think it has gotten to the point where people have become desensitized to it. I wish I can be desensitized personally, but it's just too annoying for me to listen to. And in cases where an artist apparently uses the application all the time , it is a mark of artistic deficiency that needs fixing, from the *artist's* perspective.
- Ok, so he uses it for his voice? - John PA 13:05:29 06/30/09
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- In Reply to: RE: Where does he use it?. . . posted by Todd Krieger on June 30, 2009 at 11:22:02
I know some artists really move things around. It is odd that a blues artist of true blues would. So how do you hear it if you haven't heard him without it?
The Elaborate DAC=Johnny's Balloon Meshplate 27 Balanced Preamp=Balanced Six Pacs=Newform Research 645
iRiver H140/120gb/iBasso D10 or very modified Woo 6/Ultrasone Ed. 9
see images at: www.pbase.com/jamato8
- RE: Ok, so he uses it for his voice? - Todd Krieger 13:48:47 06/30/09
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- In Reply to: RE: Ok, so he uses it for his voice? posted by John PA on June 30, 2009 at 13:05:29
In just about all cases, it's a singer's voice. I've heard homemade videos where it also affected the guitar, but there was no such effect here.
I've also heard it applied to violin. Basically anything that can go off-key.
The following link is an instructive video. There are varying levels of pitch correction applied to someone singing of the same song, and there is one occasion in the video where it's not applied at all, when the label "bad singing" is displayed. (There is pitch correction on the initial singing, although none is claimed.)
- RE: Ok, so he uses it for his voice? - FenderLover 15:29:08 06/30/09
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- In Reply to: RE: Ok, so he uses it for his voice? posted by Todd Krieger on June 30, 2009 at 13:48:47
Todd, kinda disheartening to hear that a "Blues" guy would resort to this. Geez, does every song have to sound perfect and exactly the same each time? If he uses Auto-tune for his voice, it's just a small step to using the software for everything.
- RE: Ok, so he uses it for his voice? - Todd Krieger 16:39:54 06/30/09
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- In Reply to: RE: Ok, so he uses it for his voice? posted by FenderLover on June 30, 2009 at 15:29:08
"Todd, kinda disheartening to hear that a 'Blues' guy would resort to this."
I think it's disheartening that a pop diva like Norah Jones resorts to this....... Or an R&B great like Lionel Ritchie resorts to this....... (The only singer who I cannot determine whether pitch correction is being applied is Diana Krall.)
"Geez, does every song have to sound perfect and exactly the same each time?"
This describes modern pop music to a "T"............... It's perfect, but also lacking in individuality........ The essence that makes a performance unique on a given occasion is lost. (And I had the gall to complain about wrong notes when I used to attend classical concerts. In retrospect, the wrong notes in some cases were better than right notes.)
"If he uses Auto-tune for his voice, it's just a small step to using the software for everything."
Instruments where pitch needs control from the performer, such as violins, yes. Otherwise no. I do think the issue for the future is to tweak the technology to where it's not so obtrusive. But I don't foresee this being successful to any real degree.
If there is a "bright" side, I think we've already hit equilibrium, in this regard. And with more awareness, such applications may actually decline in the future.
There are pop singers who don't use pitch correction...... But you really need to dig to find them. (Caution- video below is high volume.)
- Neko Case - plantsman 04:40:18 07/01/09
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- In Reply to: RE: Ok, so he uses it for his voice? posted by Todd Krieger on June 30, 2009 at 16:39:54
Has been actively campaigning against pitch correction for years. Linked below is an April 2006 interview with her on the subject.
- Thanks for the Reference........... - Todd Krieger 10:19:11 07/01/09
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- In Reply to: RE: Neko Case posted by plantsman on July 01, 2009 at 04:40:18
In watching a few clips, she apparently practices what she preaches.....
Because I'd estimate less than five percent of the pop singers today *don't* use pitch correction, I appreciate any references of such distinction. Thank you very much.
- So how do you know when someone IS using it? - John PA 11:50:10 07/01/09
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- In Reply to: RE: Thanks for the Reference........... posted by Todd Krieger on July 01, 2009 at 10:19:11
Does Dylan? :^)
The Elaborate DAC=Johnny's Balloon Meshplate 27 Balanced Preamp=Balanced Six Pacs=Newform Research 645
iRiver H140/120gb/iBasso D10 or very modified Woo 6/Ultrasone Ed. 9
see images at: www.pbase.com/jamato8
- RE: So how do you know when someone IS using it? - Todd Krieger 12:38:22 07/01/09
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- In Reply to: RE: So how do you know when someone IS using it? posted by John PA on July 01, 2009 at 11:50:10
It's crazy..... I personally recognized the symptoms roughly 15 years ago (I just couldn't stand the "generic" tonal character, as I once described it), yet it was just over two years ago, a Clark Johnsen post on General (link), which revealed what was causing it. (If you search my name with "pitch correction", you won't find a single post prior to this revelatory post.)
I call it the "Christina Aguilera" sound..... (Or the "Juanes" sound for male singers.) If a singer has that stereotypically sexy "pop" tone, it's probably the pitch correction you're hearing. (To my knowledge, only Elvis Presley and Tom Jones produced such tone in a natural way.) Additionally, if you ever hear a child singer that sounds like a "polished pop diva" (like what's often presented on American Idol or Got Talent), I can almost guarantee it's pitch correction.
The sad part is the masses perceive non-pitch-corrected singers sounding somewhat "plain" in an unimpressive way, because the masses have gotten so used to pitch-corrected singers. (Its use had entered mainstream music in so gradual of a way, over a period of 20 years, hardly anybody noticed.) And are often impressed by pitch-corrected singers, since the masses in most part have no idea such application even exists. Hence the false impression of extraordinary talent. (I'd guess over 95 percent of the mainstream population aren't aware of pitch correction.)
In fact, before I was pointed to the revelation by Clark's post, I personally had fallen into this trap, thinking Renee Olstead and Michael Buble were extraordinary singers. It was only later, after awareness of the application, did I realize these singers used subtle applications of pitch correction. (You'll see recs from me for Olstead prior to 2008. You'll also notice I no longer bash singers with pitch problems. Most notably Kurt Elling. The only singer I prefer with pitch correction is Barbra Streisand.)
Edits: 07/01/09 07/01/09
- Well, I've done a bit of research on pitch-corrected software and look at it like any technological change. - Audiophilander 14:34:19 07/01/09
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- In Reply to: RE: So how do you know when someone IS using it? posted by Todd Krieger on July 01, 2009 at 12:38:22
It is a tool for musicians to use in creating effects and maintaining a consistent pitch in a variety of situations, not a substitute for live performing.
Yes, it can be abused, yes, it can be overused and yes, it can add an artificial "perfect" quality to live music that for some folks may seem a bit like cheating. But, and this is a very big BUT, it can be a powerful tool in the right musician's hands when applied in moderation to compensate for widely varying acoustics, poor sound mix, hearing impairment, bad monitors, etc.
I've seen Joe perform in dozens of venues, indoor and outdoor settings of varying acoustics, with all manner of sound mixes that sometimes made it difficult to hear him singing over his own instrument, so I'll cut him a lot of slack in using pitch correction software to consistently hit notes.
As for "auto-tune" entering mainstream music gradually over the past 20 years, it's even more recent than that apparently. According to the Wikipedia entry this kind of software was introduced around 1997.
I can't blame artists for using pitch correction in a live or studio setting based upon the competitiveness of the music industry. Heck, some producers may even employ it in mixing albums in the studio when the artist isn't fully aware of it! Would I prefer that no artificial vocal enhancements were used? Sure, but it's no biggy as long as it isn't sync'd willy-nilly or rather Milli Vanilli.
Heck, I never liked the idea of Karaoke either, but it's popular as well; now THERE is a great application for pitch correcting software! ;O)
AuPh
Edits: 07/01/09 07/01/09
- RE: Well, I've done a bit of research on pitch-corrected software and look at it like any technological change. - Todd Krieger 21:42:12 07/01/09
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- In Reply to: RE: Well, I've done a bit of research on pitch-corrected software and look at it like any technological change. posted by Audiophilander on July 01, 2009 at 14:34:19
"It is a tool for musicians to use in creating effects and maintaining a consistent pitch in a variety of situations, not a substitute for live performing."
"Creating effects" is maybe the only legitimate reason for its application. (Porcupine Tree uses it for some songs, not for others.) The "maintaining a consistent pitch" is purely an excuse, in my humble opinion.
"But, and this is a very big BUT, it can be a powerful tool in the right musician's hands when applied in moderation to compensate for widely varying acoustics, poor sound mix, hearing impairment, bad monitors, etc."
Who determines whether it's in the "right musicians' hands?"
Maybe you can post a link where you think such application was appropriate. Aside from with Barbra Streisand, I have to say I've never encountered any.
"I've seen Joe perform in dozens of venues, indoor and outdoor settings of varying acoustics, with all manner of sound mixes that sometimes made it difficult to hear him singing over his own instrument, so I'll cut him a lot of slack in using pitch correction software to consistently hit notes."
I've heard a lot of singers who play instruments who don't use the app in concert. (Mostly old-school rockers like Pete Townshend.) And most singers who *don't* play instruments use the app too. I don't see much correlation here.
"As for 'auto-tune' entering mainstream music gradually over the past 20 years, it's even more recent than that apparently. According to the Wikipedia entry this kind of software was introduced around 1997."
Pitch correction has been around a lot longer..... Not necessarily in the form of Antares AutoTune......
The earliest song I've noticed having pitch correction is Jonathan Edwards' "Sunshine" (link), which came out way back in 1971. (I have no idea what application was used at that time.)
"I can't blame artists for using pitch correction in a live or studio setting based upon the competitiveness of the music industry."
And therein lies the problem...... The same excuse is used for "loudness wars"....... Hence both applications continue in spite of the scorn.
I liken this to using steroids to be competitive in sports.......
As far as I'm concerned, it's a roundabout admission of a terminal cancer in the music industry.
"Heck, some producers may even employ it in mixing albums in the studio when the artist isn't fully aware of it!"
I think this very thing happened with Rush "Vapor Trails"....... Geddy's voice is pitch corrected in this album. I only realized this recently, when I heard a track played on a radio station..... (And then confirmed it playing the CD.) This is IMO why everybody thinks this album sounds crappy.
"Would I prefer that no artificial vocal enhancements were used? Sure, but it's no biggy as long as it isn't sync'd willy-nilly or rather Milli Vanilli."
During Springsteen's Super Bowl gig, which most of it was lip-sync'ed, someone brought up the lip-sync'ing, and I then said better that than pitch correction. (At least people pick out lip-sync'ing quite readily.)
Edits: 07/01/09
- "Who determines whether it's in the 'right musicians' hands?'" - The consumer (grin). - Audiophilander 10:02:28 07/02/09
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- In Reply to: RE: Well, I've done a bit of research on pitch-corrected software and look at it like any technological change. posted by Todd Krieger on July 01, 2009 at 21:42:12
> > > " And therein lies the problem...... The same excuse is used for "loudness wars"....... Hence both applications continue in spite of the scorn." < < <
Apple (software) and Orange (amplifiers), AFAIC. There is a difference between how a musician's voice is recorded and compression added in the mastering process to punch-up the volume for mass consumption. The two concepts aren't interchangeable.
> > > "During Springsteen's Super Bowl gig, which most of it was lip-sync'ed, someone brought up the lip-sync'ing, and I then said better that than pitch correction." < < <
And here we really part company: lip syncing is more egregious by far than pitch correction, IMO. At least with pitch-correction you are hearing a live performance.
While I completely sympathize with your POV, I think each case should be taken on merit. As you so eloquently pointed out you've already made an exception with Barbara Streisand, so maybe there's some wiggle-room for other artist's as well! :o)
AuPh
- But the Consumers Have Been Duped........ - Todd Krieger 11:09:44 07/02/09
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- In Reply to: RE: "Who determines whether it's in the 'right musicians' hands?'" - The consumer (grin). posted by Audiophilander on July 02, 2009 at 10:02:28
In my humble opinion....... I think if they at large found out what I found out a little over two years ago, there would be outrage that would make the Milli Vanilli incident seem tame by comparison.
And I'll live with the disagreement. I'd rather hear someone lip-sync'ing using a recording of his natural voice than via a live feed that is pitch-corrected.
- Not really. Technically speaking, anything which is amplified has some electronic alteration of sound involved. - Audiophilander 12:42:33 07/02/09
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- In Reply to: RE: But the Consumers Have Been Duped........ posted by Todd Krieger on July 02, 2009 at 11:09:44
> > > "In my humble opinion....... I think if they at large found out what I found out a little over two years ago, there would be outrage that would make the Milli Vanilli incident seem tame by comparison." < < <
Not by a long shot. At least with pitch correction you are hearing the artist, even if the sound of the vocal is altered in some manner. Substitution of voice, whether it's sync'd from a studio record or provided by alternative voices behind a curtain is fake. IOW, I'd rather have my recollection of a live performance relatively intact, even if enriched electronically, than to be deceived by any substitution by hidden performers or voice recordings.
> > > "And I'll live with the disagreement. I'd rather hear someone lip-sync'ing using a recording of his natural voice than via a live feed that is pitch-corrected." < < <
You're right, we'll just have to agree to live with the disagreement I guess.
AuPh
- Now Here's the Kicker........ - Todd Krieger 14:36:33 07/02/09
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- In Reply to: RE: Not really. Technically speaking, anything which is amplified has some electronic alteration of sound involved. posted by Audiophilander on July 02, 2009 at 12:42:33
If you were to listen to an audio track of a known singer who is pitch-corrected to a moderate degree (typical for what's done in modern pop music), doing a song you've never heard the singer do before, and the singer's name was *not* disclosed, I think you'd have a hard time recognizing who was singing the song. Even if it turns out to be your favorite singer....... (Unless if it was Geddy Lee, Ozzy Osbourne, Willy Nelson, or someone so distinctive in his tone.)
Or......
If a familiar singer who is normally pitch-corrected in a live feed lip-sync'ed to a recording of a **different** pitch-corrected singer, you'd probably notice the lip-sync'ing, but you would not necessarily realize it was a different singer's voice. (But that other singer must also be pitch-corrected.)
Edits: 07/02/09 07/02/09
- Now Here's the Kicker........ - Todd Krieger 14:36:33 07/02/09
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- Not really. Technically speaking, anything which is amplified has some electronic alteration of sound involved. - Audiophilander 12:42:33 07/02/09
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- But the Consumers Have Been Duped........ - Todd Krieger 11:09:44 07/02/09
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- "Who determines whether it's in the 'right musicians' hands?'" - The consumer (grin). - Audiophilander 10:02:28 07/02/09
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- RE: Well, I've done a bit of research on pitch-corrected software and look at it like any technological change. - Todd Krieger 21:42:12 07/01/09
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- It seems few don't use it . . - John PA 14:26:58 07/01/09
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- In Reply to: RE: So how do you know when someone IS using it? posted by Todd Krieger on July 01, 2009 at 12:38:22
that is too bad. So I guess we need a pitch control and dial them back into "real". :^)
The Elaborate DAC=Johnny's Balloon Meshplate 27 Balanced Preamp=Balanced Six Pacs=Newform Research 645
iRiver H140/120gb/iBasso D10 or very modified Woo 6/Ultrasone Ed. 9
see images at: www.pbase.com/jamato8
- Well, I've done a bit of research on pitch-corrected software and look at it like any technological change. - Audiophilander 14:34:19 07/01/09
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- RE: So how do you know when someone IS using it? - Todd Krieger 12:38:22 07/01/09
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- So how do you know when someone IS using it? - John PA 11:50:10 07/01/09
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- Thanks for the Reference........... - Todd Krieger 10:19:11 07/01/09
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- Neko Case - plantsman 04:40:18 07/01/09
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- RE: Ok, so he uses it for his voice? - Todd Krieger 16:39:54 06/30/09
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- RE: Ok, so he uses it for his voice? - FenderLover 15:29:08 06/30/09
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- RE: Ok, so he uses it for his voice? - Todd Krieger 13:48:47 06/30/09
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- Ok, so he uses it for his voice? - John PA 13:05:29 06/30/09
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- RE: Where does he use it?. . . - Todd Krieger 11:22:02 06/30/09
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- Where does he use it?. . . - John PA 03:55:55 06/30/09
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- I Have To Admit......... - Todd Krieger 23:08:18 06/29/09
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