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In Reply to: RE: Your thoughts please. posted by jea48 on February 22, 2014 at 14:56:37
Define AC.
Follow Ups:
geoffkait,
Here is my answer.
You would guess wrong! It enforces the reason why solid core wire is directional imo. Especially when the nay Sayers give the reason why wire cannot be directional because the audio signal is AC.
Jim
have a grain structure which is basically the crystalline pattern of the substrate being aligned in a particular direction, generally in the direction of the cast metal or the drawn metal. You can change that structure by forging, annealing ( heat treatment) and use of cryogenics. But remember all metals are crystalline in nature ( except mercury) at room temperature. all crystals have an orderly or at least, semi orderly pattern, due to the formation of the crystalline structure and the nature of a crystal
Nt
If you can guarantee all bare strands of wire that make up the conductor are all aligned in the same direction as they were cast/drawn then yes, imo, the conductor would be directional.Problem is I doubt if any manufacture of stranded wire could care less if all the bare stands of wire within the conductor are going in the same direction.
Read unclestu's post above.
All metals have a grain structure which is basically the crystalline pattern of the substrate being aligned in a particular direction, generally in the direction of the cast metal or the drawn metal. You can change that structure by forging, annealing ( heat treatment) and use of cryogenics. But remember all metals are crystalline in nature ( except mercury) at room temperature. all crystals have an orderly or at least, semi orderly pattern, due to the formation of the crystalline structure and the nature of a crystal.
I agree.
Edits: 02/25/14 02/25/14
"If you can guarantee all bare strands of wire that make up the conductor are all aligned in the same direction as they were cast/drawn then yes, imo, the conductor would be directional."
I can actually supply a little actual experimental data here that supports your notion:
Over a decade ago I got the bit in my teeth to play with interconnects to try and get better performance and have some fun. Sparing you all the gory details and iterations I ended up with ~300ohm transmission lines composed of four strands of #28 magnet wire stuck in between two strips of masking tape with the grounds near the outer edges and the hots near each other in the center.
And they ended up a little directional, not a lot, but you could hear the difference. Since I built them I knew that they were symmetrical and also I knew that all four wires came off the spool in the same direction. The difference was audible in things like vocal sibilance, was it clear or 'spitty'. It's hard to describe sound but you prolly get the idea.
Obviously the thing to do was to build an identical cable alternating the wire directions in both signal and ground. So I did and the directionality went away. BUT I still preferred the sound of the directional design when installed in the 'right' way. So I just built them that way, drew an arrow on them so I know which end was the spool and have been happy ever-after.
I'm a technical sort and understand clearly that I don't understand clearly. Conversations with Stu years ago and simple reason convinced me that the most likely effect is due to the draw direction affecting the wire's crystalline structure in some manner.
The next step of course would be to see if both signal and ground direction mattered or if just one. But since I was happy with the sound and don't mind arrows on my cables I've just been building them that way ever since...
I'd say that this experience is likely appliccable to stranded wire but that the differences in it might not be as noticeable especially of it's of the bare, twisted variety, due to the possibility of strand interactions.
Regards, Rick
The next step of course would be to see if both signal and ground direction mattered or if just one. But since I was happy with the sound and don't mind arrows on my cables I've just been building them that way ever since...
rick_m
Hi Rick,
Here is a post from the late Bob Crump on the directionality of solid core wire.
Posted by rcrump on September 30, 2000 at 06:45:41
In Reply to: Re: maybe rcrump... I don't know, but... posted by Greg R. on September 29, 2000 at 19:47:48:
Solid core wire is extremely directional so just mark the end with some masking tape as it comes off the spool. Orient the wires so you have piece of masking tape at either end and terminate the wires. Throw it on a MOBIE or whatever overnight and then listen to it noting which way gives the highest image height. This is the correct orientation.
If you run the signal and return wires in the same direction you will end up with hot spots in the stage, normally at or close to the speakers, low image height and have a gaping hole in the middle of the stage...Keep in mind I am referring to the sound of the stage (reflections) not the individual instruments spread across the stage....Interconnects or speaker wires that have pianos wandering all over the stage normally have their signal and return going in the same direction....
Jim
"Interconnects or speaker wires that have pianos wandering all over the stage normally have their signal and return going in the same direction...."
Jim, I've never actually tried that configuration and haven't noticed the problems that he mentions. The only two that I've tried were with signal and ground running in the same direction and signal and ground running in both directions (remember I'm using four wires).
It was long ago and I made the unusual (for me) decision to do it all empirically just for fun. Part of that was that I suspected nothing would come of it, part that I figured it would be hard to quantify and part was that I didn't want it to feel like I was "working".
Now that I'm well retired I may revisit it and see is I can gleen any useful insights by attempting to find correlated measurements and models. It's also fun to understand things...
Regards, Rick
You would have to look into manufacturing process and supply chain issues. It would seem likely that there will be batches where all the strands go the same way.
My bet is you could find a manufacturer who cared if you paid enough $$$$.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
You wrote,
"Read unclestu's post above.
"All metals have a grain structure which is basically the crystalline pattern of the substrate being aligned in a particular direction, generally in the direction of the cast metal or the drawn metal. You can change that structure by forging, annealing ( heat treatment) and use of cryogenics. But remember all metals are crystalline in nature ( except mercury) at room temperature. all crystals have an orderly or at least, semi orderly pattern, due to the formation of the crystalline structure and the nature of a crystal."
I agree."
Who wouldn't agree? I thought everyone knew that.
You wrote,"Read unclestu's post above.
"All metals have a grain structure which is basically the crystalline pattern of the substrate being aligned in a particular direction, generally in the direction of the cast metal or the drawn metal. You can change that structure by forging, annealing ( heat treatment) and use of cryogenics. But remember all metals are crystalline in nature ( except mercury) at room temperature. all crystals have an orderly or at least, semi orderly pattern, due to the formation of the crystalline structure and the nature of a crystal."
I agree."
Who wouldn't agree? I thought everyone knew that.
geoffkait (M)
> > > > > >I said
"If you can guarantee all bare strands of wire that make up the conductor are all aligned in the same direction as they were cast/drawn then yes, imo, the conductor would be directional.
Problem is I doubt if any manufacture of stranded wire could care less if all the bare stands of wire within the conductor are going in the same direction."
Before I said,
"Read unclestu's post above.
"All metals have a grain structure which is basically the crystalline pattern of the substrate being aligned in a particular direction, generally in the direction of the cast metal or the drawn metal. You can change that structure by forging, annealing ( heat treatment) and use of cryogenics. But remember all metals are crystalline in nature ( except mercury) at room temperature. all crystals have an orderly or at least, semi orderly pattern, due to the formation of the crystalline structure and the nature of a crystal."
I agree."
geoffkait, you need to learn to read the whole post and not just pick and choose parts of the post that fits your fancy. You need to learn to keep in mind the main subject matter of the post.
> > > > > > >geoffkait (M),
Do you agree? Or disagree?
Edits: 02/25/14
It is interesting to visit certain cable manufacturers website. MWS is a good one: they have photos of the wire drawing process and helps better understand the mechanical nature of the manufacture. In addition most stranded wire is spooled and then various spools are combined to make the finished wire, so essentially the wire is unidirectional.
One must also take into consideration cross contamination. Dies used for silver for example and then used for sopper will carry traces of the silver. In addition wire as it is being drawn is lubricated, with something akin to cutting fluid. You can clearly see this in a few of the MWS machines where the wire under manufacture goes through a lubricating bath. that surely imposes impurities and further probably affects the grain structure.
Some wire manufacturers use jeweled dies (diamond or Sapphire) as little or no lubrication is needed and the jeweled die can impart a mirror like finish on the metal wire. Try looking at standard wire under a microscope, the striations from the die are clearly visible for the most part. Meticulous manufacturers maintain separate dies for different metals being drawn. That being said most outsource their wire from one the few wire giants: Belden, etc.
Here is what Belden has to say about directional cable:
Directionality, or the idea that electricity flows better in one direction through a cable than the other, is a common concept among certain self-identified audiophiles. Belden did a double-blind test for cable directionality in conjunction with an audiophile magazine. The end result was perfectly random. Belden is still happy to manufacture and sell directional cables to enthusiasts. They make up a long length of cable, cut it in segments, identify the ends of the segments so they know how it came off the spool (length A-> B, length B-> C, length C-> D, etc), and then let the customer identify by careful listening which direction is "better". Over thousands of cables sold, the chosen "best" signal flow is random, for segments cut from the same spool!
What was the test procedure? Who were the test subjects? When a magazine like Stereophile has reviewers who can not hear the mixed phase in many of the speakers they review, you think I would believe they can hear directionality differences?
Plus, They really and actually tested thousands of samples?
I somehow doubt that figure.
I have tested tens of samples over many spools being a dealer. I can consistently hear differences. For many, the differences are rather small, sometimes insignificant for some, but I can still hear them. For me, the difference is important enough to always code the ends.
and of course YMMV
You, as well as everybody else, hear what you subconsciously believe you should hear unless you do a double blind test. Unless you've done that anything you believe you heard is no more than an anecdote.
On another note: Logically if AC signal cables were in any way directional the signal, when reaching its destination, would have to be grossly distorted.
On another note: Logically if AC signal cables were in any way directional the signal, when reaching its destination, would have to be grossly distorted.
Why?
To be directional the cables impedance/resistance would have to be greater in one direction than the other.
Or if you think in terms of vibrating electrons imagine a cable running from left to right.
The electrons would be freely moving to say the right but would have to be restricted in their movement to the left or vice versa.
An extreme case would be a diode: Near zero impedance in one direction, near infinite impedance in the other. If you feed an AC signal through it the result is nothing like the original waveform since half of it would be completely missing. A truly directional cable would have to have a similar although lesser effect resulting in gross distortion.
You wrote,
"To be directional the cables impedance/resistance would have to be greater in one direction than the other."
It is. Just like fuses.
if the impedance is different in the two directions, then this can be measured. Measurements are not the end, they are a means to the end, which is good sound. Where measurements are available they can be quick and reliable. Listening tests tend to be unreliable and costly. If one is trying to improve the sound of a product (or a system) working by listening tests will be slow and costly. If effective measurements are available then much of the journey can be done quickly, with fewer expensive listening tests required.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
You wrote,"if the impedance is different in the two directions, then this can be measured."
I never said or even suggested that it couldn't be measured. Of course, nobody actually does measure it.
You also wrote,
"Measurements are not the end, they are a means to the end, which is good sound."
OK, if you say so. Are you volunteering? Measurements of what, that is the question. In this day and age, there are a great number of things that cannot be measured, or at least one would have difficulty coming up with a measurement strategy. You know what I'm talking about.
You also wrote,
"Where measurements are available they can be quick and reliable. Listening tests tend to be unreliable and costly."
Really? I would think the opposite. Unless you already have the measuring equipment. Besides, you still have the problem with WA Quantum Chips, clocks, rainbow foil and all those other things that go bump in the night.
You also wrote,
"If one is trying to improve the sound of a product (or a system) working by listening tests will be slow and costly."
I actually don't think that's true. Not slow, not costly.
You also wrote,
"If effective measurements are available then much of the journey can be done quickly, with fewer expensive listening tests required."
How do you effectively measure a lot of the new fangled things that have popped up in the last twenty years? All the quantum stuff. All the PWB stuff. Let alone all the CD fluids, room tuning widgets, all the RFI/EMI doo dads, even vibration control stuff. Much easier to conduct listening tests.
Edits: 03/01/14 03/01/14
Stu: "For many, the differences are rather small, sometimes insignificant for some, but I can still hear them. For me, the difference is important enough to always code the ends."
You: "Logically if AC signal cables were in any way directional the signal, when reaching its destination, would have to be grossly distorted."
I'd say your "logic" has a few bugs in it. Stu has identified directionality as a subtle effect. You claim that if it isn't gross it's nonexistent. See the disconnect?
I've heard it and at least in that instance it was subtle, but like Stu I too thought it worth controlling-for as it was easy and free since I was building my own cables anyway. It was subtle enough that I just assumed that it would be tough to measure so I really didn't try. It was most evident in the sound of soprano sibilences.
Might be fun to look at further one day. I still have most of the same stuff around.
Rick
Vocal waveforms tend to be asymmetrical. I suspect if you carried on you would be able to show up the effect using a suitable test waveform. I would start by looking at amplitude spectrum plots.
Until you can get repeatably different measurements it won't be possible to investigate further as to more specific causes, e.g. whether directionality is in the cable itself, in the connectors, or in the results of the physical termination processes.
Fun for a rainy day?
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
"Fun for a rainy day?"
Could be. No shortage of pursuable stuff in home audio but we get quite a few rainy days...
Rick
In my system directionality is not subtle. Both for interconnects and fuse. Very pronounced.
"In my system directionality is not subtle. Both for interconnects and fuse. Very pronounced."
Interesting. I didn't really test across systems. Have you tried to sort it out at all?
Rick
Not sure what you are referring to. Please elucidate.
"In my system directionality is not subtle. Both for interconnects and fuse. Very pronounced."
That should make it easier to "sort out", i.e. figure out the mechanism, than it would be if the effect were more subtle. Usually the grosser the effect the more likely it's readily measurable...
Rick
We already know what the mechanism is. And we've known it for twenty five years. Hel-loo!
"We already know what the mechanism is. And we've known it for twenty five years. Hel-loo!"
Gosh... That's wonderful. Help an old guy out, what was it again? I can't wait to pour over the supporting data and all...
R.
Roughly a couple of years ago I played around with a 75 ohm RG6 copper solid core quad shield coax cable to see if it was directional. I did not have any true 75 ohm RCA plugs. I just used a pair of Vampire RCA plugs I had. For the length of the cable I used the accepted 1.5 meter length. I think I made it just a tad longer.I used the digital out on my ARCAM Alpha 9 CDP connected to a Cambridge DAC Magic.
I first powered up my system and let it warm up for about 30 minutes. I picked CDs I was familiar with. For critical listening I like to use CDs with female vocals and parts with piano solos.
Just going from memory I played Diana Krall, "The Girl in the Other Room" and "Love Scenes". I also like to use Jenifer Warnes, "The Hunter" and "Famous Blue Raincoat".I did not pre burn in the cable. I did not want any settle in time on the cable.
The test.
I sat down for a listen.
I picked a track and listened only to a particular part over and over 2 or 3 times to train my ears to what I was listening to.
I then flipped the cable end to end and listened to the same part of the same track again.
Long story short the differences were not subtle.It was quite easy to pick the direction that sounded best to me on my system.
Once I found the direction that sounded best to my ears I then took a fine point sharpie pen and put a small dot on the cable end that connected to the DAC. I wanted it to be hard to see.
Next listening test was to listen to an entire track of a CD. Time after time I could pick/identify the direction that sounded best to my ears.
Next test, I took the cable down to an audio dealer I know quite well.
I talked to a salesmen I have known for many, many, years and asked him to listen to the cable. I did not say anything to him that might influence his listening experience. I just told him I had made the cable from a piece of RG 6 coax cable I had.
Long story short he picked out the direction that sounded best to his ears 100% of the time. The direction he liked best was the same as I had picked.
I should note this guy is not really into cables. He couldn't believe the coax cable could be directional.Before I left the Store I looked at a 2 meter Tributary digital cable hanging on a wall display. That’s right I said Tributary. Supposedly tributary’s best digital cable. I asked the salesman is the cable directional. He replied no. I asked him are your sure? He looked it up in a Tributary book and replied nope the cable is not directional. I said let me take it home for a week or two for an audition.
Well guess what? The digital coax cable is directional. And the center conductor is solid core copper. Again I marked the end of the cable that sounded best to my ears that connected to the DAC for a reference. I kept the cable for at least 2 weeks.
Back to the Dealer's store I went.
Long story short the salesman picked the correct direction 100% every time.Scientific test? No....
.
.
.
.
.
The revelation that digital interconnects and their direction can introduce large differences in measured jitter was quite a shock. The differences heard between digital interconnects—and in their directionality—have now been substantiated by measurement.
http://www.stereophile.com/content/transport-delight-cd-transport-jitter-page-9
Edits: 03/01/14 03/01/14 03/01/14 03/01/14
"Scientific test? No...."
Well...I don't agree, I think it was quite scientific and I'd say the odds are long that your coax cable's direction audibly affects the system performance. It sounds like you made a reasonable effort to avoid bias and had no investment in which way was best, if either.
And you know, I don't remember if I ever tried reversing mine. I've got one link in particular that I definitely want to run a test on. It just never occurred to me.
There are all sorts of reasons for testing things, what sort of cook doesn't taste the sauce? It's the unexpected correlations that spice things up. It's one thing if adding salt to the stew affects it's flavor, quite another if doing so makes the screen door quit squeaking. It usually pays to be a good observer and that includes not wontedly ignoring things that weren't expected.
Rick
Rick,Did you read this?
The revelation that digital interconnects and their direction can introduce large differences in measured jitter was quite a shock. The differences heard between digital interconnects—and in their directionality—have now been substantiated by measurement.
http://www.stereophile.com/content/transport-delight-cd-transport-jitter-page-9
Quote from Stereophile article.
Conclusions
There is now no question that jitter in CD transports and digital interfaces affects digital audio sound quality. Not only do different transports and interfaces sound different, they produce varying amounts of jitter and have their own "jitter signatures," seen in the jitter's spectral distribution.Moreover, we can see that transport jitter goes right through the digital processor's input receiver (even the Crystal CS8412) and affects the amount of jitter at the DAC's word clock—the point where jitter makes an audible difference. If the word-clock timing is different, the sound will be different.
The revelation that digital interconnects and their direction can introduce large differences in measured jitter was quite a shock. The differences heard between digital interconnects—and in their directionality—have now been substantiated by measurement.
Although the CD-transport measurements presented here are fascinating, it is impossible to draw conclusions about how a transport will sound solely by looking at its jitter measurements. Based on the measurements and listening impressions of the Audio Alchemy DTI, we can confidently conclude that the jitter differences the DTI imposes on both high- and low-jitter sources are easily audible, and that lower jitter always correlates to better sound. But when examining the jitter performance of other transports, a direct correlation is less clear.
Edits: 03/02/14
"Did you read this?"
Probably... back when. I shall, again?
Thanks Jim
Rick
You were probably napping when it was discussed. A search of the archives might turn up something, who knows?
Ah, the AES connection. Now, that makes sense!
:-)
Since you ask, I'd say you're guessing.
You wrote,"You would guess wrong! It enforces the reason why solid core wire is directional imo. Especially when the nay Sayers give the reason why wire cannot be directional because the audio signal is AC."
I wouldn't use those words, that "it enforces the reason why solid core wire is directional." What it would do is counter the argument for non-directionality. But only for the interconnects and speaker cables and for fuses not in the path of AC power. We still have the power cord and the fuses in the path of AC power in the amp and CD player, etc. Are they directional, too? If they are, the argument regarding the music signal and the electromagnetic wave do not hurt the naysayers' argument regarding AC.
Edits: 02/24/14 02/24/14 02/24/14
Nt
geoffkait,
Sounds like I best give you a technical answer
Quote
While most single-channel analog signal transmissions use direct current (dc) variations in current or voltage to represent a data value, frequency variations of an alternating current (ac) also can be used to communicate information. In the early 19th century, Jean Baptiste Joseph Fourier, a French mathematician and physicist, discovered that ac signals could be defined in terms of sine waves. A sine wave is described by three quantities: amplitude, period, and frequency. The amplitude is the peak value of the wave in either the positive or negative direction, the period is the time it takes to complete one cycle of the wave, and the frequency is the number of complete cycles per unit of time (the reciprocal of the period).
Now a question for you.
Is the output of a tube amplifier's output transformer AC or DC?
> > > > > > > > > >
geoffkait,
I would appreciate your help on my original posted message. I would think you of all people would be interested in the subject.
Jim
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