|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
99.251.236.4
In Reply to: RE: I am truly very sorry if you believe posted by E-Stat on July 26, 2010 at 18:33:00
Totally unrelated to the discussion.
__
"Always be sincere, whether you mean it or not."---Flanders & Swann
Follow Ups:
Nothing changes at all in a quarter of a century with respect to electronics.
rw
I am not sure where you get that--certainly not from me. There are a number of amps nowadays with very low S/N rations, very low distortion, and also a number that can drive very low impedance loads. I dare say there are many more available now than there were 25 years ago. Under what conditions these make an audible difference is another question.
__
"Always be sincere, whether you mean it or not."---Flanders & Swann
Amplification stages have come a long way in the past twenty five years since Stereo Review tested the question of audibility. An SP-11 was a good preamp, but no match for a REF5. The same can be said for amplifiers.
Under what conditions these make an audible difference is another question.
That would be playing music. Without any of the built in crutches required by Clark's ABX testing.
rw
A back a few posts, you break in with some really off the wall statement about something you attribute to me with no justification.
"I am truly very sorry if you believe that there have not been any sonic improvements with amplification stages in the past twenty-five years."
Where on earth did you get that?
__
"Always be sincere, whether you mean it or not."---Flanders & Swann
Did you actually read the test to which you linked? Do you really think there have been no sonic improvements at the high end over the past quarter century? If so, then I'm really sorry to hear that your exposure is limited. If not, then you will understand how stupid referring to such a dated test is.
rw
I caught Analog Scott out on two things.
One is an blind amplifier test published in Stereo Review which he kept saying was published in 1985. I quickly found out that it was published in 1987, which meant that he was discussing an article which he did not have in front of him. We both managed to find the text on line and he then admitted the point. I did not defend the results in any way, shape or form.
You are correct that the article in question has been superseded, but not for the reasons you suggest. In Stereo Review for June 1991, there is an article by E. Brad Meyer, "The Amp/Speaker Interface: Are your loudspeakers turning your amplifier into a tone control?" In this article, an unspecified solid state amp and an unspecified tube amp were tested driving two unspecified speakers, one with a difficult load an the other with an easier one. Some FR measurements were shown. The blind tests revealed that the differences between both amps was audible on pink noise with both speakers. With two music selections, however, the differences were shown to be audible with the amps driving the difficult speaker load, but with the easier load, they failed to prove the difference between the two speakers was audible. Obviously, the program material used can affect the outcome of such tests, and it is possible that with other music, maybe the differences between the two amps would show positive results when the amps drove the easier load. In any case, the pink noise test was sufficient to show there were audible differences between those two amps when driving those two speakers.
Since I have seen the results of E. Brad Meyer's test and other tests, I do not ordinarily question whether a tube amp sounds different from a solid state amp since it is reasonably probable they do. I think E. Brad Meyer deserves credit for publishing why many tube amplifiers do not sound the same as many SS amplifiers. It is simply their high output impedances. Audio magazine began showing the responses of tested amplifiers into a dummy or simulated speaker load, and Stereophile started to do so a few years later.
To get to the second thing. In his OP, AS mentioned a couple of threads on other sites which he thought illustrated his view that at least some of those he calls "objectivists" make a biased selection of published test results and don't criticize the ones that achieve null results. He may or may not have a minor point, but the threads for which he provided URLs contained quite rational criticisms of a positive DBT and a systematic survey of the literature was not needed. When I pointed this out, AS decided the threads he used to try to illustrate his thesis were irrelevant!
I remarked in a post that if the differences in the frequency responses of two products differed by more than the limits shown in the ABX Matching Criteria on the ABX site were exceeded, a blind test would not be needed to convince me the differences were audible under some conditions because a threshold has been previously established. However, AS jumped in and asserted that he had already shown two examples of this in his OP, so I simply asked him what those differences were. He has not replied. So I caught him out again.
__
"Always be sincere, whether you mean it or not."---Flanders & Swann
> > One is an blind amplifier test published in Stereo Review which he kept saying was published in 1985. I quickly found out that it was published in 1987, which meant that he was discussing an article which he did not have in front of him.> >
When did I ever say I had it in front of me?
> > We both managed to find the text on line and he then admitted the point.> >
"admitted the point?" What point? There is no point there Pat. The article is real, It clearly describes highly flawed methodologies and clearly published very unlikely results. And we have no evidence of any objectivists scrutinizing this very high profile test and dismissing it.
> > I did not defend the results in any way, shape or form.> >
Who said you did? I suggest you reread my OP and see if you can figure out the problem here as it relates to meta-analysis commonly applied by so many objectivists when it comes to DBTs. With the 1985 Stereo Review article we have one of the highest profile examples of ABX DBTs in the history of the great debate. We also have a null which is a a dubious result given the presence of a 50 watt OTL.
The problem I am pointing to in the meta-analysis of so many objectivists is that I can find a multitude of examples of objectivists scrutinizing and then dismissing DBTs that wrought a positive result. One can not find the same criticism of said tests that wrought a null from objectivists. This pattern clearly fits the description i provided of poor meta-analysis. I simply cited the Stereo review article because it was so high profile that it should have had a slew of objectivists scrutinizing it and dismissing it had the objectivists been doing propper meta-analysis.
Where is the scrutiny of this test by the same objectivists who are scrutinizing DBTs that wrought positive results? Cherry picking......
OK now what was the other thing you "caught me out on?"
I'll just sit back and watch you obfuscate again.
Well, when you want to discuss an article, it behooves you to know who wrote it, what the title is, and what it said. You showed no sign of knowing anything of the sort. As for the flawed methodology and unlikely result, you haven't shown either one, though I happen to agree it could have been more sensitive. But since you did not know the particulars of the article, you could not possibly show that the 1987 SR amp test is high profile, and that it has not been criticized.
I cited a 1991 article in Stereo Review by E. Brad Meyer which showed audible differences existed between a SS amp and a tube amp, how audible depending on the speaker loads. Moreover, he showed why they sounded different.
The second thing? It is as I stated: You tried to illustrate that some objectivists, unnamed and unquantified, questioned the results of a positive DBT for no good reasons. However, your illustration fell flat because they did in fact come up with rational reasons why the test results should be questioned--in other words, it seems likely that the positive results simply reflected the test set up.
"To get to the second thing. In his OP, AS mentioned a couple of threads on other sites which he thought illustrated his view that at least some of those he calls "objectivists" make a biased selection of published test results and don't criticize the ones that achieve null results. He may or may not have a minor point, but the threads for which he provided URLs contained quite rational criticisms of a positive DBT and a systematic survey of the literature was not needed. When I pointed this out, AS decided the threads he used to try to illustrate his thesis were irrelevant!"
This reduces your allegation about cherry picking to mere assertion without evidence.
__
"Always be sincere, whether you mean it or not."---Flanders & Swann
"Well, when you want to discuss an article, it behooves you to know who wrote it, what the title is, and what it said."
Really one has to know the title? No Pat, all one needs to know in this case were the relevant facts. I'll list them for you.
1. It was ABX DBTs
2. The results as reported were a null
3. Given the presence of a 50 watt OTL amp with the load presented by the speakers used this is a very unlikely result.
4. The methodologies were a mess.
5. One can not find any scrutiny of this test anywhere online by any objectivists despite being one of the highest profile tests of it's kind.
I knew those 5 points from memory and rereading the article confirms those points were accurately remembered. And that is all I needed to make my point in the OP.
"You showed no sign of knowing anything of the sort."
Then you can't read the signs Pat.
" As for the flawed methodology and unlikely result, you haven't shown either one,"
Really? What aren't you getting about the problem with a 50 watt OTL not giving a positive result with the speakers used?
> > though I happen to agree it could have been more sensitive.> >
Clearly if it missed the obvious differences one would hear with a 50 watt Futterman and a cheap SS amp from the 80s.
" But since you did not know the particulars of the article, you could not possibly show that the 1987 SR amp test is high profile, and that it has not been criticized."
That is some pretty piss poor logic there Pat. again I would point you to the five key point above. they are all that matter in this case.
"I cited a 1991 article in Stereo Review by E. Brad Meyer which showed audible differences existed between a SS amp and a tube amp, how audible depending on the speaker loads. Moreover, he showed why they sounded different."
And this does what other than support my assertion that the results of the 1987 ABX DBTs wrought unlikely results?
> > The second thing? It is as I stated: You tried to illustrate that some objectivists, unnamed and unquantified, questioned the results of a positive DBT for no good reasons.> >
No I did not try to do that Pat. Again I suggest you read the article I cited on meta-analysis since this explains my actual point rather than the one you seem to be imagining here. I never commented on *the content* of these two threads that scrutinized the ABX DBTs that wrought positive results.
You maintain a number of things about the 1987 test but have not established any of them. You haven't shown why we would expect the Futterman amp to sound different--though from what I have seen somewhere, it should sound different under some common circumtstances.
Also, we have only your word that is a high profile article.
META-ANALYSIS?
Since I have shown that Stereo Review published an article in 1991 by E. Brad Meyer showing that a tube and a SS amplifier were audibly different with a speaker load. I should also point out that Stereophile did a very poorly set up mass blind test between a tube and a SS amplifier with barely positive results which readers showed were somewhat ambiguous, but Banks and Krajicek ran a smaller but much better set up blind test using the same two amplifiers and achieved a much less ambiguous positive result. Since the results reported in the 1987 SR article have been superseded, one wonders why you think it is so important. You give no reason whatever why subsequent testers would want to reexamine that old article except for historical purposes.
METHODOLOGY
You complain that:
"4. The methodologies were a mess."
But you do nothing to establish that. The results could have simply statistical fluke for all you have told us.
Since you maintain that "the methodologies were a mess," you should be able to tell us what they should have done better, but you aren't saying. Until you do, your complaints about the methodologies are simply your unsupported opinion.
-Why do you think the result of part of the test comparing the tube amp to the SS amps achieved a null result?
-What should the testers have done to make the test more sensitive?
I'm only trying to teach you something about how to support your positions.
__
"Always be sincere, whether you mean it or not."---Flanders & Swann
When you have a counter argument to any of my points let me know.
And that's what I have shown. If you want to make your points, it's up to you to argue for them.
__
"Always be sincere, whether you mean it or not."---Flanders & Swann
and that is what I have shown. And these personal attacks prove you have no argument that i have no argument.
Score one for the argument that "This Will Never Be Resolved". ;)
i just wonder if he got the jokes.
Is there some form of measurement for the jokes? Has it been determined that the jokes are "get-able"? Evidence required. ;)
That made me laugh at 5 in the morning. But it was under sighted conditions so I don't know if I really laughed or imagined it
I keep wondering if people in South Central L.A take the time to DBT gunfire or if they just take cover.
There is an end. One can invoke the Kleene Star operator.
For more on this subject read the following:
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
...wishing for 10 beers and then all non-biased thought went straight out the window. :)
Thanks - this was quite good. lol
Godel Escher Bach is one of my favorite books, but it requires a lot of determination to make it all the way through, especially if you follow all of the serious parts in detail and work out the puzzles.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
...which he kept saying was published in 1985. I quickly found out that it was published in 1987
You really got him there.
...a blind test would not be needed to convince me the differences were audible under some conditions because a threshold has been previously established.
Yeah, your wording was an absolute hoot.
rw
and he STILL doesn't get it.
Pat has brought the joy back to Propheads for me.
I am glad that you enjoy the simple pleasures. :-)
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
since having to put the system into storage while my wife and I look for a home in DC, I've had to learn to enjoy the absurdities of the asylum just a little bit more...
Post a Followup:
FAQ |
Post a Message! |
Forgot Password? |
|
||||||||||||||
|
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors: