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208.58.2.83
In Reply to: RE: "I give you The Church of the Latter Day Saints." So that's what it's going to be, is it? posted by EBradMeyer on September 24, 2007 at 13:53:30
...that they couldn't. Now it's up to *me*, to prove they can? Again, LOL!
"Wine experts comply with these requirements all the time." Very rarely, actually -- only in contests (of which there are few) and in the examination for MW (of whom there are few). Suggest you stick to your own expertise.
Clark: "But numerous DBTs (or better) have proven polarity's undeniable audibility -- why don't you believe the DBTs?"
EBM: "Now you're changing the subject."
Guy, you're the one brought it up! Geez Luiz. You only wanted me to do all over again, what has already been firmly established.
And on it goes:
"The signal has to have a fair amount of asymmetry." Yep. Not like test tones, rather like, oh, musical instruments!
"On most material and systems, most of the time, there was no evidence of audibility." A total mischaracterization! My own tests established a 99% confidence on musical examples alone, and John Atkinson's got IIRC 95%; both were published. And Stan Lipshitz reported 95% as well, on tests involving both tone bursts and music, not to mention that he was a fierce partisan of absolute polarity, as was Prof. Richard Heyser.
"None of those tests prove anything like what you claim in 'The Wood Effect'." I made few claims of my own in that book; it was a compendium of, and analysis of, other people's claims and tests. Interestingly, of the some eighty quotations I found in the literature pre-1988, only one disacknowledged polarity, and he was Sam Burwen, a stalwart BAS member!
"I notice you didn't accept my invitation, though, and didn't address the stamped-vs-CD-R issue at all." The invitation was for an experiment fraught with error, as was the one in the M&M paper, so no, thank you. I wasn't aware that you were also proposing some "stamped-vs-CD-R" sort of thing as well, and upon review I don't seem to see it.
clark
"John Atkinson's got IIRC 95%" :
Reference, please. (Right, there is none.)"Stan Lipshitz reported 95% as well" :
See link for the correct score. "The audibility of polarity on music was not confirmed whether the sound source was vinyl or a 1/4 inch 2-track master tape" says the report, which, if not obvious to you, refers to the 60/113 (53%) result obtained for the part of Lipshitz & co. So there's your "fierce partisan of absolute polarity.""...as was Prof. Richard Heyser" :
Reference, please. (Right, you've always refused to provide one in the past, and you will refuse to provide one now, too.) It's a dubious practice to ascribe claims to people who are no longer with us to deny the assertions.You're full of chicken litter, as usual.
Your own "listening sessions" don't count for the obvious reasons. Amazing that you still keep trying.
As for deluding others, that's a different matter, and so for the record, I have stated on numerous occasions the exact sources *and words* of those three gentlemen, all in print, and I'm not going to repeat myself for nasty twerps.
Do a search.
clark
...and all I've ever found is more instances of you squirming. The only reference you've given that has something to do with the subject matter is the one to your own self-published pamphlet that you keep liberally bringing up. Now that's not a lot, is it, considering your big claims: "Atkinson 95%, Lipshitz 95%, Heyser..."So where are those figures available? Nowhere.
I almost feel bad for you. You've lied so much you can't stop now.
The link gives a nice example of how you go about doing it. (Yes, I know it has that false claim by Atkinson included, thinking as he did that that would somehow help you get off the hook. Nice thought... too bad only his figures were a little bit "misinterpreted" so to speak so it could only make you look that much worse.)
TL
Clark;
Here is my original proposal to you, since you claim not to know about it, quoted from my message to you of last weekend:
"I’ll make a bit-for-bit copy of a CD – your choice – on a CD-R. I’ll stand in your control room and on the basis of a coin flip I’ll decide which disc to put in the player, ten times. You tell me which disc is playing, ten times. You should get 10/10 with no trouble. Maybe while we’re there I can switch my polarity inverter box in and out of the circuit, and you’ll tell me when it’s active. How about it?"
Those experiments might well be fraught with error, as you say, but not because they're invalid or hard to understand. They're too simple and way to risky for you. You claim to have already done the polarity experiment, though you never wrote it up or published any description of it at all that I know of. (If it is in print I'd be very interested to read it.)
So let's see -- you have ignored what I've proposed, ignored or deliberately misconstrued my explanations of what the experiment was about, gone off on irrelevant tangents about nearly everything, ignored my specifications of speakers and room for several of the systems we used, claimed I haven't identified our A/D/A link when I posted it here last week, and generally obfuscated and evaded issues right and left. I think this has been demonstrated adequately to everyone else here, so there's not much point in taking this any further.
-- E. Brad
> > You claim to have already done the polarity experiment, though you never wrote it up or published any description of it at all.
AES Preprint Number 3169, "Proofs of an Absolute Polarity" -- to have been the first of three sets of experiments, the rest abandoned as inconsequential.
> > So let's see -- you have ignored what I've proposed
Hmmm... that does not comport at all well with the above discussion.
> > ignored or deliberately misconstrued my explanations of what the [polarity] experiment was about
I know perfectly well what the experiment was "about" -- inter alia your refusal to mind previous reported experiments.
> > gone off on irrelevant tangents about nearly everything
"Nearly everything." OK... whatever...
> > ignored my specifications of speakers and room for several of the systems we used
I was unaware they had been given here. Nor does anyone else here seem clear on that, given the number of questions raised. Why single me out?
> > claimed I haven't identified our A/D/A link when I posted it here last week
I may have missed link, but to me you wrote, "The device we were using is a recording system, which passes a signal *through* it." Oh. Good to know. Not very specific, though. Elsewhere you wrote, "You asked what our bottleneck sounds like, and we’ve proven the answer quite well: It sounds like the signal that went into it." Equally helpful.
> > and generally obfuscated and evaded issues right and left.
"Right and left." OK... whatever...
Say! So far, you've not replied to repeated questioning on how the "bottleneck's" sonic results compare to an actual CD device, an important consideration as you drew several (abrupt) conclusions about CD -- not about the "bottleneck".
Nor have you replied to my demonstration that you had blatantly mischaracterized my book The Wood Effect.
Nor... nor...
Do those qualify as "right and left"?
> > I think this has been demonstrated adequately to everyone else here, so there's not much point in taking this any further.
"Everyone else here"? The moderator of this forum called the M&M paper "a crock". How d'ya like them apples? Someone else remarked, "They got exactly the results I would expect with the player they used." And: "I believe the authors were being disingenuous when they stated that they used 'very expensive electronics'." And: "Bottom line - The authors got the results they wanted. Neither is a scientist or an engineer and it shows."
Yikes!
Finally, one fellow said, "The player determines the quality of the test." Whereas Meyer said, "It doesn’t matter what particular player we used. I say that’s because it sounds the same as all the others."
I rest my case.
clark
.
...the moderator.
Nor would I advise you to be so sanguine about whom you're aligning yourself with. Don't let your longterm animus against me get the better of your mind. Read this, for a demonstration of who's trying to stick to the point, and who's going overboard:
TSP: Thanks. It's hard not to try, whatever the odds. An eon ago we lived in the same house, and at some well-chosen times, he was a true and good friend. -- E. Brad
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