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In Reply to: Again you miss the point; but I've learned to expect that. nt posted by Dan Banquer on August 23, 2006 at 09:02:02:
Dan, are you stupid? You pick one of the cheapest "hifi" amps on the market and blame its noise on lack of negative feedback, even though it is a Class D design where noise of the sort you measured is par for the course feedback or not.
You also blame its sonic character on the fact that it has no feedback, ignoring the other more obvious factors that would make an amp sound bad when the going gets tough; namely a cheap ass underpowered and underspecified power supply.
From this HIGHLY FLAWED example you draw conclusions about all negative feedback amps as if they all behave like a cheap ass Class D amp that should have been left driving cheap ass subwoofers for hometheater-in-a-box.
If you look at the links I gave you above you will see that nearly ALL Class D amps measure like the Panasonic. Most have plenty of negative feedback.
Your point was blantantly obvious. You wanted to "prove" that subjectively a no feedback amp can't sound good and must be contaminated with tons of noise (in band or out of band). The fact is that I know of SET amps (of course with no feedback) that are so quite they don't even make a whisper with 100+db/watt speakers. And at low power measure better than most SS amps at the same low power.
Think I'm wrong about your point?
"I have had the misfortune recently to listen to two units that had no negative feedback" This sets the tone.
"Both of these units had much in common: they both clouded up when the music got dense, and both had objectionable and very audible noise" Implication: bad sound must be due to lack of feedback.
"Some folks may appear to like these characteristics, I find it takes away valid and important musical information that I would like to hear." Assumption: These pieces sound bad so all non-feedback gear sounds bad and people must love it for these charactertistics.
"I will assume at this point considering my experience, that folks who think negative feedback is the curse of audio, prefer the noise and lack of information units without negative feedback give."
Assumption: People prefer noise not music and I am the only one who knows the difference. Nevermind if these units are not representative of non-feedback gear as a whole.
Jesus, Dan! A non-feedback Class D amp is not representative of ANYTHING. In fact it is the only one I know of. It certainly doesn't relate to all those non-feedback linear amp designs (which have little to no noise out of band for starters).
"Dan, are you stupid? You pick one of the cheapest "hifi" amps on the market and blame its noise on lack of negative feedback, even though it is a Class D design where noise of the sort you measured is par for the course feedback or not. "
There is a bunch of Audiophiles on various forums who praise this/these units to the skies and call it a giant killer.
Take it to them, I was done with this months ago.
So, what's the CD player - an Emerson combo?
"There is a bunch of Audiophiles on various forums who praise this/these units to the skies and call it a giant killer"
Most of us dismiss this for what it is, Dan, people happy that something so cheap doesn't sound like complete crap. I thought we were talking about serious amp design here not mass market garbage. I am note even sure it sounds better than the usual so-called "linear" amplifier available at this price.
I haven't heard a Class D amp yet that sounds anything close to what real music sounds like with the exception of the (very expensive) Sharp. This one sounds like a very good SS amp with soft high frequencies (soft as in not grating to the ears). All the rest I have heard fail in the HF (no surprise there is it?) and just generally have a funny overall tonal balance. I have heard many types, ICE, tripath, hypex, Ucd, proprietary, etc. There are definite differences but none sounds right and I think the HF noise is a major culprit as is the overall harmonic distortion spectrum these amps produce.
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