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In Reply to: Re: Does anything more than 20Hz-20KhZ matter? posted by bloosquare on November 22, 2005 at 19:23:48:
I think you're confusing sample rate with frequency response.-Bob
Follow Ups:
Perhaps I am, but these things are interrelated no? What I mean to say is that cd players and dats used use 44/48khz sample rates mostly because our hearing only went to 20 khz (aka nyquist) or so. Perhaps this is wrong but I was thinking w/ a 192 khz sample rate the appropriate dvd-a/sacd dac must be sending out a signal w/ a frequency response of 88khz or so. I'm just wondering what normal speakers are even capable of doing anything w/ that end of the spectrum? I've heard the argument about harmonics, but why aren't those harmonics in the audible range due being recorded using a normal sample rate?
is that an inherently higher bandwidth design obviates the need for the obligatory "brick wall" filter found in RBCDs.rw
Take a .5 millisecond 10kHz centered guassian pulse.Play it out the DAC on your computer. LIsten.
Now, fiter it with a (very long) FIR filter that will cut off between 20kHz and 20.1 kHz. Yes, it will be long, best done as fast convolution, etc, but in modern systems you can design and use such a filter.
Listen for pre-echo and see if you can hear any. :)
Exactly. When the DVD standard first came out the sampling rate was chosen by what the technology of the day allowed. The technology has gotten better since then. I don't see any reason why it may not eventually get to a megHz and eliminate the need for steep filters.
are not aware that the original Redbook standard was not determined by ideal circumstances - rather it was backed into based upon the data storage limits of the 80s media.Ok, you've got a 700 megabyte budget to spend and marketing has determined play length of 74 minutes. Arrive at the best compromise of word size and sample rate. Any musical frequencies produced past 22k (and there are plenty of instruments that create such) must be completely removed or they shall show up as 100% distortion. Whether or not we "hear" them is irrelevant.
rw
Dear All
The thing is that most people other than the rock in a groove guys catered for in other forums. Are judging the material
at 16bit 44.1khz. and some of the artefacts produced by files converted to this standard from much higher data flows sound a lot worse than decent apogee 16 bit dacs input to a DAW at 16bit to red book CD. Thus the continuing
high second hand value of the old 8 channel units.
Perceived quality has a great deal to do with the frequencies from
say 100hz to 10khz I don’t know of anybody who hears great differences in audio quality between super tweeters its just either there or not. I am a great deal more impressed by the sound of an RCA 44 with an OP-6 pre amp from 1938 than I am
with the sound of a modern transformerless Chinese transistor condenser. Thus the price difference second hand. You see its down to the fact that bats for all the guano they produce have never organised them selves in any way financially and until such time as they become a major force on Wall St will not be guiding the audio industry second hand market. Although they will probably be influencing new equipment and review pages in recording magazines. Go on please a passing Bat.
Regards.•:*¨¨*:•. ¸¸.•´¯`•.Mark Harwood, Engineer Springvale Studios
I think you're missing my point. Let me recap:1. A bunch of instruments produce output waaay past 20k.
2. With RBCD, you must remove ALL of that or what remains will be pure distortion.
3. Brickwall filters used to achieve #2 do nasty things down in the critical 100 hz to 10 khz audible range.rw
1. A bunch of instruments produce output waaay past 20k.
2. With RBCD, you must remove ALL of that or what remains will be pure distortion.
3. Brickwall filters used to achieve #2 do nasty things down in the critical 100 hz to 10 khz audible range.
BTW Happy holidays :)Just to follow up, it makes sense to me that you need an equivalent of a brickwall filter to remove everything above what is capable
of being recorded at the sampling frequency (to prevent aliasing/noise). But how do these filters change the recorded sampling in the audible range?I did a bit of hunting and noticed there was an issue w/ Phase deviations, which occur w/ analog brick wall filters but I dont think this is an issue w/ digital filters but I may be mistaken. What are the general problems w/ lopping off the > 20 khz or so frequencies using a digital filter?
-best
-avi
to those engineers like Jack Renner who find the results better using much higher sample rates.rw
Dear RW
You have not quite got it have you. What are your customers listening to your output on. CD Sky Digital Mp3 if its a film DVD.
All of these systems have limitations and until they change those the job of the audio recording professional is to make a product that sounds
A) Good in the A&R department office. (44.1Khz) You might get more work.
B) To the CD review page editors home system (44.1Khz) the record company sent him a CD
C) to the end user. He bought a CD(44.1khz) and did not return it as faulty.
I think anti aliasing filters are about as good as they are going to get right now. So I will work with what actually exists. When audio designers produce a system that finds a way into the A&R Office
I will have to think about that.
Meanwhile I will continue working on the work I have at hand. I am making a recording with Neil Innes for the cartoon series The Mistermen in which all the audio is made from sounds emanating from either bodily functions or percussion trom belly slapping. Most of the sounds of the hip hop drum loop are.
A) Kik low frequency artificial trouser trumps
B) Snare gated raspberry and mouth pop slaps.
C) Hi hat various mixed sneezes
Not sure of the frequency response is as for some reason I forgot to use waves plug in paz freq in the master inserts.
Regards.•:*¨¨*:•. ¸¸.•´¯`•.Mark Harwood, Engineer Springvale Studios
PS I have never had a booking for a dog whistle ensemble.
maybe that’s where I am going wrong.
to figure out my answers.Good luck on your latest project.
rw
¿4v? I thought this was the pro audio asylum. So I was under the impression. We would be talking about the actual practical considerations of recording. With the best will in the world
Data flow rates are finitely fixed by others and are without our control. My best microphones don’t have anything like a response
to the figures bandied about here. And they are all the most sought after makes and types my best sounding Pre amp has a transformer in its output and is not doing anything after 22 K.
I don’t make the stuff. I just use it .OK lets talk about this. I don’t think there ever will be a microphone or recording system/set of speakers that can in any way reproduce the audio and physiological effects of firing a simultaneous salvo of 18" shells from the three three barrelled foredeck guns of my great uncle Admiral Sir Henry Harwoods Command HMS Rodney. On the bridge if you did not keep your mouth open it broke your teeth and the gun flash gave you an instant sun burn. So where in audio terms are we going from there.
To the Cable Asylum I should not wonder.
Regards The Countess, of Burford & Mark Fairfax-Harwood.
to fully decode your posts, but yes, there are mics and mic preamps used in commercial recordings that have output past 22k.If you don't use Neumann, ATC, or Sennheiser mics nor preamps like Millenia Media, then perhaps you don't have to worry about such things.
rw
I used to work for Sennheiser, and as I recall, their mics in most cases actually do not have significant response beyond 22 kHz. Even among the RF condenser mics, all but the MKH 816 shotgun have sharply falling response at 20 kHz (the MKH 816 actually has a dip at 15 kHz and rising response at 20 kHz).A couple times there I got calls from guys who insisted that a good mic should have response down to 0 Hz. I had to gently point out that the mic would have to also include a barometer to do that. ;^)
-Bob
Dear Rw
I use Neuman and Sennheiser Mics. I have monitors with ATC midrainge Soft domes. The tweeters are Scanspeak I think.
Pre amps by STC, Neve, RCA, Gates, Symetrics, BE, Never heard of Milenia Media and I have been in this business 33 years full time. Just checked Dreamhire and Blackbird audio rentals Nashville.
They have everything a grown audio engineer could possibly desire.
Including several Fairchild 670s and 18 of the mic I would most like to own ELAM251. Nothing by Millenia media for hire.
Can't remember seeing that name on British hire company lists.
Regards Mark
PS What is it again that makes this pre amp so sought after.
They use the preamps, as do quite a few other folks.rw
Dear RW
Yes I am and a very good old boy was Thomas. Though
far too Swedish for my taste. Hardly a sense of humour at all.
Regards Mark
It was rather dry, but it was definately there.I got to talk to him a few times about why he designed the Soundstream stuff the way he did. It's a bit tragic that that work never got put into publication form.
was on hand in Atlanta back in '78 when the ASO did The Firebird . I had the good fortune of playing a minor role during the recording and meeting Woods and Fenner.rw
Dear DW
That must have been a fantastic experience I am dead jealous. Back then I was a gopher/tape op at Polydor studio two stratford place and very willing and much abused. I never got to go on any interesting outside jobs. I just went that translucent white like one of those termites in a mound. And still had to moonlight to make my rent.
EEEE those times were hard if you told the youth of today they just wouldn’t believe us.
Regards Mark
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