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In Reply to: RE: Studio monitor volume controls rotation posted by Sumflow on July 02, 2012 at 00:22:54
I'm curious what the speaker output does when you turn the level control. If the volume continues to increase as you turn the level control clockwise to -10-dB, then it must be mislabeled. Perhaps it should read +10-dB.
Regardless of whether it is mislabeled, just set it to a position that works best for your particular application.
My Dynaudio BM6A MkII monitors have a three position switch for level control. It is labeled from top to bottom +4-dB, 0-dB, and -10-dB.
Good luck,
John Elison
Follow Ups:
Thanks John,
It works off all the way left, louder +4, loudest -10. It is hard to believe a monitor used in so many studios would have the silk screen printing off and not have had it fixed by now.
When I set the signal coming through the computer to full blast, I want to know where flat is on the monitors to give me an idea where I am on the pre-amp. I don't want color from the monitors messing up the sound I get from my pre-amp. I would rather have the computer and monitors flat, and control any EQ from the McIntosh loudness controls. Why guess at something that can be known?
~~~
The Driver smiled when he lost the car in pursuit...
The term "flat" does not apply to the level control. The term "flat" normally applies to frequency response. Therefore, if you want to set your monitors "flat" you would set all the equalizer switches to zero-dB. You can set the level control anywhere that provides the volume that you desire.
It seems reasonable that b.l.zeebub is correct that the +4-dB setting is to be used with a balanced connection and the -10-dB setting is to be used with an unbalanced connection so that the speakers play at the same relative volume level in either case. For example, +4-dBu = 1.227653-V RMS and -10-dBV = 0.316228-V RMS. The difference between these is 11.78-dB. Therefore, perhaps the volume level is increased by 11.78-dB as you turn the level control from +4-dB to -10-dB.
Good luck,
John Elison
Hey John, in the sense that the OP is asking about "flat", he's not referring to a frequency response curve. Rather, he's referring to no gain and no attenuation imparted by the control's circuit - i.e., "flat". It may sometimes be called "zero", but there's a lot of equipment where zero simply means EITHER no gain, OR, no attenuation.
OP, not being familiar with the particular product, but taking an educated guess, I'd say that "flat" using a +4 scale and pro equipment is where it indicates "+4", and "flat" using a -10 scale and consumer equipment is where it indicates "-10". Of course, the output characteristics of the source will affect where "flat" actually is, and where the best position is on the control - some sources run a little hot, others a little low.
And yes, all the variations on measuring and spec'ing levels can be quite confusing unless you've been steeped in them for years, which most audio folks, including me, haven't! I would say that the folks who can readily equate one to another, and easily move from one to another, and interface both are: audio electronics design engineers, studio techs, professional equipment repair techs, broadcast engineers, and not many other people!
:)
In any case, I'm mystified as to why the OP doesn't look at the manual or contact Yamaha.
Well, a potentiometer attenuates and only attenuates. Therefore, "flat," meaning no attenuation, would be the -10-dB setting regardless if whether you are balanced or unbalanced. There is no such thing as a no-gain position because the potentiometer has absolutely nothing to do with gain. The speaker has built-in amplifiers with fixed gains that never change regardless of the position of the potentiometer. The potentiometer is basically out of the circuit when set to -10-dB in the sense that it passes the incoming signal without attenuation. At any other position, the potentiometer attenuates the incoming signal.
Best regards,
John Elison
I haven't seen the schematics of these particular speakers but I'd bet my bottom dollar that those pots are connected to an active input gain stage.
"Hey John, in the sense that the OP is asking about "flat", he's not referring to a frequency response curve."So, we agree on that, right? You didn't mention that aspect of your previous post, nor in my reply, in this post. Obfuscating? ;)
"Rather, he's referring to no gain and no attenuation imparted by the control's circuit - i.e., "flat"."
I should have included "based on the signal level 'standard'" being referenced, but I thought the discussion had already established that. +4 is one, -10 is another.
JE: "The speaker has built-in amplifiers with fixed gains that never change regardless of the position of the potentiometer."
As I noted in my previous post, I'm not familiar with that particular product. However, I'd guess that it doesn't have a variable gain amplifier, but rather, the control is simply a pot.
I'm still puzzled about why the OP doesn't ask Yamaha or read the manual?
In any case, none of this has to do with EQ settings, but rather, signal level references, right? ;)
btw, the speakers with the combo mid and tweet, that's cool! I'll have to take a listen to them online sometime. :)
Edits: 07/02/12
The printing is not off at all.
The +4dB setting is meant to be used if you feed them a pro level balanced signal (nominally 2.83V) and the -10dB setting if you send them a consumer level non-balanced signal (nominally 0.7V).
Consequently they will be louder with any given signal on -10 than on +4 as the on-board amps make up for the 11.79dB difference in the two.
(It is 11.79 difference because one is actually referenced to dBu the other dBV but I keep forgetting which is which.)
Here is what wiki has to say on the subject:
"dBV
dB(1 VRMS) – voltage relative to 1 volt, regardless of impedance.[2]
dBu or dBv
RMS voltage relative to .[2] Originally dBv, it was changed to dBu to avoid confusion with dBV.[24] The "v" comes from "volt", while "u" comes from "unloaded". dBu can be used regardless of impedance, but is derived from a 600 Ω load dissipating 0 dBm (1 mW). The reference voltage comes from the computation
In professional audio, equipment may be calibrated to indicate a "0" on the VU meters some finite time after a signal has been applied at an amplitude of +4 dBu. Consumer equipment will more often use a much lower "nominal" signal level of -10 dBV.[25] Therefore, many devices offer dual voltage operation (with different gain or "trim" settings) for interoperability reasons. A switch or adjustment that covers at least the range between +4 dBu and -10 dBV is common in professional equipment."
Digital sources complicate things a bit further since 0dBFS can equate to all sorts of voltages.
With pro sources 0dBFS can quite easily be +18dBu (20Volts or so) because when digital audio started it was recommended that the rms output should be -18dBFS which was later revised to -12dBFS but in these days of the Loudness Wars an rms level of -6 to -3dBFS is quite common.
None of these settings are 'flat' per se as you adjust gain/headroom ie how far up you can turn your volume control before things start clipping.
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