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71.63.141.221
Hello, everyone. I play with four other people in a junior band (at this point, we're all 20 or younger). I'm not by any means the 'head' of the band, but I'm the technical go-to guy for everything, be it theory questions, transposing, and anything to do with the sound after it leaves whoever's instrument. I certainly play with the band, but if we aren't performing, I'm the sound engineer too.
Well, I really think it is time to upgrade our mixer. Right now, we're using a Ross Systems PC6400B, a powered mixer with six channels, one of which doesn't work at all and another which is about half the volume of what it should be. Most of the knobs crackle as they are turned, and many cut out the sound unless in certain positions of rotation. It has too much hiss for recording well into my computer, and there are frequent pops that move the woofers so much I'm concerned for their health. I also have a Behringer "14-channel mixer" with only six mic preamps, but hasn't worked for over a year. I replaced the fuse and opened it up for a visual inspection, but nothing. I'm tired of dealing with cheap equipment, but then again, I'm just a kid, not a pro engineer.
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Part of this post is for mixer recommendations. We'd use the mixer for practicing, amateur recording, and probably small outdoor shows. Whether or not it'd be used for bigger venues, I'm not sure. It would be nice to have enough channels for a drum mic kit, but probably not necessary since it's best to record seperately.
Here are the mixers I've been researching:
Carvin C844U: $370
Carvin 1644U: $700
2x Carvin C844U: $740
Allen&Heath Zed24: $700
Mackie Onyx 1620 w/ Firewire: $1300
Mackie Onyx 1640 w/ Firewire: $1850 (common on eBay)
Mackie Onyx 24.4: $1700 (common on eBay)
Allen&Heath Zed420: $1500
Allen&Heath GL2400-24: $2000
I certainly don't mind buying used if it is in good condition. What other options are out there? How do the above models compare with each other? I'm uncomfortable spending more than $1,200 for a board, so I'm counting on eBay for most of these models.
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Second part of the question:
We're just a bunch of kids. I know we aren't anything amazing, although I wouldn't say that to the others. Hey, a couple of them even think we're going to 'make it big' someday. And a band's quality isn't determined by the quality of its gear, but for the times when gear does make a difference, well, it's just silly to buy a $4,000 camera when you only have a $60 lens.
Also, assuming the band splits (because few don't), should I pay extra out of my pocket so that I get to keep the board when we split? Is that something I even want? How much should a kid be investing in this stuff anyway?
All thoughts are welcome. :-)
Carvin is junk. Plastic centered pots, etc. CHEAP, noisy.
Allen and Heath build quality is iffy. When I was a dealer, they would send products that they new were DOA, with replacement powers supplies for us to swap in the field. The Zed is their entry level. I would pass.
I would do the Mackie Onyx out of those listed. It is a good sounding mixer, has minimal phase on the channel strips, the EQ is a step up from the others. They are tough mixers.
If you can do used, a good mixer would be a used Soundcraft 200Delta. They are built like a tank, have metal pots, where the last discrete console that they made at that level. You can get some mods from Jim Williams at Audio Upgrades. That is what many audiphile symphony recorder folks have done. Those mixers sound big, have headroom, low noise, and great EQs.
To be honest, I'm afraid to buy a used mixer! Who knows who was clunking it around and what kind of grit is inside? I feel that if I were to buy used, there is a 65% chance it would never turn on, or sound muggy, or the hiss would be excessive. I feel I'm gambling with the odds against me!
I've put some more thought in to it, and I've talked things through with my dad. He is not good with audio, but he has business sense I admire. I think I won't go with the Firewire multi-tracking option for Mackie.
I figure I have two options:
- Go expensive: Mackie Onyx 1640 or Mackie Onyx 24-4
- Go cheap: Soundcraft MPM 20/2
My guess is that any of these three boards would work great for practicing and amateur recording in our practice space, and also the potential gig (if we had to bring our own gear). I also plan to ask the band if I can pay half out of my own pocket, and if the band were to split, then I would keep the mixer.
And if I buy a dust cover and don't move the mixer, who knows, it could last longer than my Behringer by at least several fortnights. :-D
The junior Onyx boards have that Firewire option, which sends up to 18 channels separately to the PC for multi-track mixing. But then again, isn't recording done best one instrument at a time? So unless we really wanted to record live shows, is this $450 Firewire card a sham?
I'll look into the Soundcraft, but another inmate suggested buying new because abused boards can quickly lead to noise. The current hissing of my analog and digital preamps is what's keeping me from recording now. So maybe I'm leaning toward the Mackie Onyx 24.4, if I can find it cheap?
I am not saying buy an abused board. I am sayin that a nice used board from a church install, theater, etc (where it was likely maintained) sent into Jim for him to go through, will compete with mixers in the 6 figure range sonically. A new console can have noise, crappy grounding schemes, etc.
Look at it this way. What will you do with your new MI market console when you are through with it? Sell it? Good luck getting your money out of it. The used market for new China made stuff is crappy. However, I bet you can get close to all of what you spend on that Soundcraft back.
Recording. The Mackie is designed really for live recording, That is the reason the EQ is out of the cricuit. You do not want the live corrective EQ'ing recorded to 'tape'. When recording, tracking individual instruments used to be the norm started in the 70s. For years, bands that truly have talent will track live in a couple of takes. THAT is where the magic happens.
I found a Soundcraft Delta on eBay, item number 200248452473. It's a 16 channel, 4 bus mixer that was used only in a studio and never toured. It was recently cleaned and serviced too, it says. The starting price is $600.
Is this the type of board you mentioned? If not, perhaps you could show me an example?
Thanks a heap for the help. I really, really appreciate it. :-D
Bingo! Snag it!
I'm sorry, I can't bring myself to buy a used board under these conditions. There's no way I can return anything if it goes bad a week or a month later, and finding somebody for repairs isn't easy like it is for cars. Please forgive me for passing up the Delta?
I narrowed it down to two options:
1) Expensive: Mackie Onyx 1640 or Mackie Onyx 24-4
2) Cheap: Soundcraft MPM 20/2
I really don't need multi-track recording. The Mackies have wonderful features, and I can probably get them new for $900 and $1100 respectively. The Soundcraft is cutting it close on auxiliaries, it only has a 3-band EQ, and it is generally tight on features. But I read somewhere that when Soundcraft makes cheap boards, they cut out features instead of quality, which is how I would like it. I can pick up the MPM 20/2 for $500. I won't love it, but it will get the job done.
We have ~$1000 in a band fund for a mixer, flexible in either direction. But I'm thinking of offering the other members half out of my pocket under the condition that "if" (i.e. when) the band splits, I will get to keep the mixer. Does this sound like a good idea to you? How would you handle it?
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