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146.186.181.112
Hi,
My wife and friends have formed a new bluegrass band and are looking to invest in some equipment for their gigs. They've been getting some conflicting information about whether to used power speakers, or unpowered speakers (with a head), and ditto for monitors. Sweetwater Sound recommends going the powered speaker route, the local music store is suggesting unpowered. The unpowered setup is cheaper...not sure of the sound quality differences though.
For now, they'll mostly be playing in bars and the like.
Any advice of how to proceed? Money is somewhat limited, but I think the band really wants to have good equipment that can do their sound justice...
...to retain the beauty and tone of acoustic instruments by their not being amped needlessly.Vocal/area reinforcement with GOOD (Neumann) mics, and perhaps an amp for upright bass (if used) are all that is needed indoors. For outdoor tent gigs, rent a "house system" and charge accordingly.
A modest, quality system for small venues should be affordable and top mics do not become obsolete.
Best!
Neumann does not necessarily equate to good anymore. Most of the modern mics they are turning out (thanks to Sennheiser leadership) are crap. They are using chips to simulate tubes and transformer sound. Being a Neumann does not make it a good live mic with off axis rejection. Like anything else, we must be model specific. I have used U47s, 48s, 49s and 87s live. I would rather have a mic designed for the application than a vintage mic that needs an obscure $2k tube (in the case of the 47s and 48s).
Many of the top bluegrass acts are endorsed. I have worked with and for groups using AudioTechnica, Shure and Audix mics. The success of large diaphragm mics is based on the band's ability to acoustically mix themselves on stage. Next would be the ability to achieve good gain before feedback. The last important thing is in-ear monitors. If you are planning to use floor wedges and/or side-fills, then you are going to have a sonic mess on your hands at FOH.
Opinions welcome. Shure's Beta 87 is ubiquitous.(Also Sennheiser's MD 441U dynamic supercardioid might be found used. Fleetwood Mac used them live - iirc.)
Ive used that Neumann model you have listed on bluegrass vocals and to tell ya the truth I dont much care for that mic for live use
It has a real funny tone/bite around 2k region if I remember right
Besides its way overpriced for the performance
I found the Beta 58 to be a much better sounding vocal mic
I did sound for a large church festival thing and used the Audix OM3
Now that is a dam nice sounding live mic on vocals hands down
I was totally impressed with the feedback rejection and articulation
and uncolored sound of that Audix OM3 for any vocal
I use cardiod condensors on live bluegrass instruments
AKG C1000S great mic
Audio Technica large diapragm mics are sweet
Oktavia small condensor...sweet
MXL 603 a budget small condenser that is real sweet
Sennheiser 441s aren't really used on live tours for vocals anymore. While they take the SPL, they are not the hottest mics. They do have good off axis rejection. The clips are expensive to replace and break easily. Same thing is a problem with the 421s.I like the Neumanns. I used them on Junior Brown's (Telarc, Curb) vocals for a couple of years. I used them on Steve Ripley and The Tractors (Arista) for a couple of years, replacing the original Beta 87s. Disclaimer. Junior had a Shure endorsement deal, so that ought to tell you something there.
The Beta87s were too sippy on top, and a bit too grabby. They released the 86 to address those issues among other things. They are much better with noisy stage than the 87s. The new Shure KSM9 is a great mic. You should check it out if you are considering the Neumanns.
Also in that tonal range are the Audio Technica AE series. Pretty good mics as well.
My experience was with artists that could use anything that they wanted. We tried everything too. at the end of the day, you are going to find it easier and cheaper to repair a Shure. If you break the mics, you send it in and for a flat fee, the will replace the mic if need be. It is cheaper than paying a tech bench time. A 58 is like $35 to replace, which is darn near Guitar Center's cost.
.
Quote: "Neumann does not necessarily equate to good anymore."
Anymore?! Ha!
Neumann made a bunch of mics in the past which weren't worth their price, even when the dollar was strong. The KM84 comes to mind immediately. Brittle, edgy, irritating sound.
It's important to remember that the U.S. dollar is now "in the dumper", so anything made in Europe is unnecessarily expensive here. Fortunately for European manufacturers, there are plenty of Americans who believe that expensive=better.
Thanks for the articulate responses on a previous inquiry about our new bluegrass band’s sound system. Let me add some specifics.
We are currently a quartet but are aiming to add a fiddle to have the classic guitar, banjo, mando, fiddle, uprightbasss with five vocal mics so 10 inputs are needed. We play bluegrass with a lot of 3 part harmony. We will be playing bars and gigs like that, if we get big outdoor gigs we’ll rent or hire, but we want to be self sufficient for smaller things. We’re hoping for a weekly gig through the winter if things work out. We’ve come up with two options so far – the more expensive one with powered Mackie SRM450v2 speakers and a less expensive one with a powered head and unpowered speakers. I’d say we’re willing to spend $1k but don’t really want to go over $2k. We will be using mostly SM57 and SM58 mics (a few of which we still need to buy).
Option A:
10 channel Tapco Mix10FXP powered mixer $350
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Tapco-Mix10FXP-1000Watt-Powered-Mixer?sku=482835&src=3SOSWXXA
Tapco 6915 2-way 15” speakers $250 each
Alto Elvis 12M monitors $185 each
Plus cords and stands and all gets us in for $1400
Option B:
Use existing unpowered mixing board we have
Two Mackie SRM450v2 powered speakers $750 each
XLS202 200w powered amp for monitors $300
PV12M 12” monitors $200 each
Tweeq 31 band graphic EQ $139
Rack for all the stuff $280
Plus cords and stands gets us in the ballpark of $2800, which is pretty pricey it seems.
So my questions to you aficionatos are
1) Will option B really sound that much better
2) Are there any problems with option A? Should we bump up the speakers or add anything? There are fewer bands on the EQ with option A but separate main/monitor eq.
3) Any other suggestions
Thanks for the help
Will Hancock
wohbio@engr.psu.edu
Tapco is crap
Even as budget gear
Hahaha!
C'mon smc, quit beatin' around the bush and tell us what you REALLY think!
:)
Buy used. More bang for the buck. You can buy higher quality at the same prices.
The Mackies could also be subsituted with RCFs. Don't buy JBL EONs! The drivers are molded onto the baffle. If you drop a cabinet accidently, the hf driver can snap at the throat and then you are REALLY hosed. They are a witch to service. Mackies are not easy to service eather, but they are more reliable that way.
Beware of Alto. Cheapo stuff.
Quote: "Money is somewhat limited, but I think the band really wants to have good equipment that can do their sound justice..."
Ah, yes. Where have I heard that a thousand times before? Hahahahaha!
"Their sound" is the sound which the audience hears. If sound reinforcement is being used, THAT is a big part of "their sound".
It really comes down to what they think is acceptable, and, more importantly, what their clients and audiences will BUY. (BUY = Getting gigs).
But since you said that it's a new band and that they'll be playing bars and such, I'll cut ya some slack from my usual stark-reality position.
Get a pair of 12" 2- or 3-way self-powered speakers (preferably 3-way), a decent mixing board with good channel EQ, a proper snake, and high quality microphones. 12", not 15". Good channel EQ. High quality microphones.
I'm not in a position to benefit from recommending certain brands (thankfully). So I'll just say that Mackie makes some appropriate speakers and a decent mixing board. EV, JBL, Yamaha, and others also make some nice speakers.
Forget the monitors and all the baggage that goes with them. We're not talking about loud rock-and-roll or 16-piece jazz or 110 dB here. If a small band of bluegrass musicians aren't good enough to hear and balance themselves in a bar, monitors ain't gonna help their career. At the most, in the more rowdy bars, they might need their own self-powered speaker feeding them the same mix as the audience gets (with some bass cut).
hth
Quote: "Sound like you want to sound. Screw the alternatives."
You dont have to have compression or effects for bluegrass
I work with a ton of bluegrass acts
Basically how much do you want to spend?
Thats the biggie here
If you use a powered head all you will need is a separate amp
for the monitors
The EQ and typically any reverb you want is supplied in the powered head
The self powered loudspeakers can be a bit pricey
If you are on a budget you can purchase an entire system
with loudspeakers on tripods/stands/mics/cables etc for less
then 1k
I put a link below
Even the low budget loudspeakers these days are lightyears ahead of
loudspeakers of yesterday
You can thank China for low cost budget gear
Like I said it all comes down to....how much ching you want to spend
- http://www.musiciansfriend.com/navigation/packaged-pa-systems-live-sound?N=100001+305335 (Open in New Window)
It all depends on your venues and what you will be amplifying. If you plan on using large dia. mics (like what is fasionable now) then you had better have a good speaker system in the proper location, with very tight coverage patterns and/or processing.
If you compare apples to apples, in other words two exact same speaker systems, one powered, one not, the powered (active) version will be cheaper. The amp modules are in the box saving you rack space. The amps are tailored to properly drive the LF and HF components. The system is biamped most likely (take Mackies for example). So you would need TWO amplifiers, a crossover with delay compensation, EQ, and limiting for speaker protection with the inactive versions. Now, you need speaker cables, a rack for the amps, etc. You are NOT going to get an amples to apples deal with active speakers vs. a "head" with inactives. You need more than the head to do the same job.
Why don't you rent some of each and experience the pains and benefits of both? Why not contact the comparable and then the busiest groups in your genre, playing in your geographic market and see what they use?
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