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Has anyone ever heard of the use of Single Ended Triode (S.E.T.) amplification for sound reinforcement? I am an audiophile and I love how modern S.E.T. amplification works in home audio and even some studio applications. With highly efficient loudspeakers like Eastern Acoustic Works products, it seems that S.E.T.s in smaller venues could work (50'L x 16'W x 12'H). Movie theaters and auditoriums used Western Electric 91 mono amplifiers with 300B S.E.T. vaccuum tubes back in the 1930s and 1940s. These amplifiers have become cult classics in many audiophile systems.I have heard my share of solid state amplifiers from QSC, Crown, Mackie and Yamaha. To me, they just get loud and drive inefficient, current-hungry speakers, but they sound very dry and lack good tonal balance. I have had sales reps at mass market dealers like The Guitar Center give me a puzzled look and then explain to me that tubes distort sound, and aren't fit for sound reinforcement amplification. To me, distrotion may apply to guitar amps and even some mic preamps, but why do acclaimed engineers like Steve Hoffmann use Wavac Wavac HE-833 S.E.T. amplifiers for monitoring purposes (http://www.symposiumusa.com/MonRoom.html)?
If pro audio S.E.T.s amplifiers exist, do they have balanced inputs? Please, no opinions. Just facts. Thanks.
Follow Ups:
Not unless you want to spending ching on fried diaphragms
and recones from underpowering your system and not being able
to get the gain you need to get over the topSquaring the top of the waveform and putting it through your loudspeakers is a bad combination
Diaphragms yes, recones no. Clipping does no damage to woofers. Highly clipped waveforms are in fact part and parcel of the tone of the electric guitar. The clipping produced by a tube amp driven beyond spec pales in comparison to that created by a distortion pedal.
Everyone, thanks for your input and feedback. From the posts, it doesn't look like many pro audio guys have heard SET gear in stereo applications, and that's okay. It looks like I will have to stay with solid state for now. Oh well. I am considering the Carver Pro ZR1600 amp along with the QSC RMX 2450. The Carver Pro amp is intriguing since its design is based on TriPath switching technology. I have read some reviews that the Carver Pro amps actually feature certain SET-like qualities like a holographic soundstage and dynamic presentation.If anyone has any experience with the Carver Pro amps in a pro audio application, please share them with me. I would also welcome any feedback on the QSC amp as well.
Back in the days when I did PA for local and (small name) touring groups (mostly punk, ska, etc) coming through town, I would use a solid-state amp. The equipment was rugged and easy to tote around - plus you don't have to worry so much if someone accidentally spill beer on your amp - ie, I would rather lose a $200 solid-state 'pro-sound' amp than a nice tube unit.I still prided myself on making good sound by using a nice little separate mixer, some decent (SM58 and SM57) mics, and some semi-decent horn speakers. Not exactly 'hi-fi' - but better than the 'turn it up to 11' crowd. I have gone to too many shows where you can't hear the vocalist, or everything sounded too muddy.
I've heard of a local tube guru using for PA a pair of EICO HF-60s into some Altec horns... it was for Barqoque music in a semi-large hall.
for mo pic theatres driving very large plane wave horns that could be driven with one watt to about 100db/1meter. These horns had a low cut off not lower than about 40hz. Even in the late forties and fifties most of the tube amps in theatres were Class AB push pull. Yes, they are used by hi-end audiophiles and for good reason. They sound very good! These would be too fragile for your average rocker to lug around. Besides the public doesn't want QUALITY. They want QUANTITY. I went to an IMAX movie the other night. You would think that Imax would have among the best in audio reproduction. Not true. I would venture to say that there was more distortion being produced in that new, modern IMAX system than in any SET/horn system being used in the 40s. Why because only two companies were responsible, Western Electric and RCA. Every theatre had to pass a proof of performance test by engineers before the theatre could admit the public. This Imax presentation was doing nothing but shaking the walls. Direct radiator woofers bottoming out, solid state amps clipping like gangbusters. They were trying to reproduce down to 20 hz and that is just not very possible without producing a lot of distortion with it. In most modern public performances using sound reinforcement, the sound quality I've heard is abysimal compared with the heyday of Cinerama in the late 50s and early 60s. Ray Hughes
"I take you as you are
And make of you what I will,
Skunk-bear, carcajou, bloodthirsty
Non-survivor.
Lord, let me die but not die out." THE LAST WOLVERINE by James Dickey
It's odd that the sales reps would say they're inappropriate for sound reinforcement because they distort the sound. Guitar Center, et al, are perfectly happy to sell tube mic preamps for recording purposes, and in an SR application, who in the audience is paying attention anyway? :)BTW, the next time you're in a Guitar Center, or other similar store, think about who's working there. Umm, 22 and no professional audio education comes to mind. So, consider the source.
Having lambasted the sales people, let's move on to equipment. Maybe, paraphrasing Bob Lee, you have a crap signal to begin with. What mics are you using? Maybe they just don't have any high end. Even the sort-of-decent Shure SM-58 will "lose it" after being banged around and spit into for a while.
And then of course, you have to look at the console. Are all the HF Cut filters turned down? hahahhaa. Or is it just full of crap electronics?
And, don't forget the quality of the snake.
From a sonic standpoint SETs could work just fine in pro applications; as you note once upon a time that's what was used, by default, because that's what was available. No pro-touring sound company would use SETs today, as they lack the power and road-worthyness required. No semi-pros would use them for those reasons, and because they're too expensive compared to SS. There being no demand for them, they don't exist.
[b]No pro-touring sound company would use SETs today, as they lack the power and road-worthyness required. [/b]THAT is exactly why. That and that no one in the audience would notice anyway. Or care.
For example, I build PA speakers from birch ply. I have had many ask why, mdf is more sonically "dead" whereas ply has resonances. There are many reasons why I chose ply. It is far stronger than mdf. The corners don't crumble when bumped. It holds screws better. And someone has to move those things in and out of the truck. Ply is half the weight. And the real topper is, not once has anyone come up to me at a gig and said, "I can hear some resonances in your PA speakers". Not once. So, they sure aren't going to notice or care if you used tube amps.
As far as guitarists liking tubes... that's fine. That amp is the guitarists' responsibility. If he shows up at a gig and his stuff does not work, he'll have to run his stuff through the PA or another amp, and I'll warn him. Or if he screws up my gig I'll fire him and hire another guy. Sorry, that's the reality. I bring backup saxes to gigs, backup mics, cables, PA amps, speakers to gigs, the guitar playerbrings his backup amp-- and it's SS.
But back to the reliability thing, they damn sure care if you show up for a gig and your gear doesn't work, or is intermittant, noisey, etc.
Perhaps the input signal was very dry-sounding and lacking in tonal balance? ;^)-Bob
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Again, thanks to all for the feedback. After some consideration, we were going to go with a couple QSC PLX3102 amplifiers (two loudspeakers and two stage monitors) based on the recommendation of a pro audio consultant. That consultant dropped the ball at the last minute, and I had to find someone fast. Fortunately, we found a new and better contractor and he recommended Lab Gruppen amps when I told him what we were looking for in a system that was comparable to an audiophile stereo. Actually, we only bought a single Lab Gruppen C-Series amplifier since it is a 4-channel amplifier. We also went with EAW loudspeakers and an Allen & Heath mixer. After some critical listening after the installation was completed, I can confidently say that this system sounds really, really good. I've actually played back some audiophile recordings on this system and I have been very impressed with the speed, detail and clarity of the system. With the EAW speakers, it sounds very similar to an S.E.T. amplifier. The amp has never shown signs of any strain whatsoever. I really think these Class D amplifiers have a lot going for them as the technology matures. Since we never tried the QSC amplifiers, I have no comparison to make. I can say confidently that if anyone is looking for audiophile quality sound, the combination of an A&H mixer, Lab Gruppen Class D amplification and EAW speakers is a great system.
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