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In Reply to: Quality PA speakers for singing posted by Jimmy on February 5, 2006 at 05:17:46:
For the money you want to spend for two seperate systems
why not put all the cash together and get one nice system
that will cover everything?I have never heard of someone running two sound systems
one for voice and one for instruments...Especially for a kids band
Follow Ups:
I am an audiophile. The kids are also audiophiles after starting listening at the age of 4 years old & are now both 10 years older. Their 'standard' high quality solid-state mixer is used for instruments. Voices are not best served with instrumentation speakers & associated gear.On the other hand, we use a seperate tube type mixer for voices that is built to audiophile standards. Played thru my home entertainment DIY monoblock tube amps with high quality speakers, the voice side is so much improved they do not want to go back. I could build a line array with Scan Speak drivers, but wonder if a high quality PA based speaker exists.
We figure why settle for second best when technology exists for best quality.
I am an audiophile.Please, drop the hubris at the door.
What were you using for sound reinforcement gear before the great tube experiment? Was the band playing behind this tube system live, or were you just playing a recording of them through it?
A sound system for reinforcement is a costly thing when done well. Nobody since John Meyer back in the G.O.D. has set up separate systems for each player. It is cost prohibitive and just not worth it anymore.
Second, mixing a band live is only 1/3 equipment. You think you fight room acoustics with your "audiophile" system and room? Try a garage, crowded pub, or corner in some banquet hall at a wedding. Third, the person at the controls mixing is a huge part of how good or bad they will sound.
Typical setups at this level involve letting the musicians play through their amps for stage level and front of house(FOH). You'll run vocals, and maybe kick drum and bass through the system if you have subs. You also need to train the kids to not bring a Marshall full stack to a garage gig. Going to "11" on something that large is stupid in a small venue with a small PA.
Another big factor is the monitor system needed so the vocalists will be able to hear themselves sing over the guitars. There's a second system right there, and it contributes a lot to overall sound quality too. Without, it won't matter how great a bunch of audiophiles you've raised, they won't be able to sing on key without hearing themselves.Now, there are certainly very good sounding live systems to be built, but not knowing what exactly you've been playing around with doesn't help figure out what to tell you.
John
Agree with John, I regulary work with pro-touring sound systems where the board alone costs over $100k and you can figure in another $250k worth of speakers and amps etc., and nobody has separate systems for vocals and instruments. It's not for lack of money, it's for lack of need. Doing so at the garage band level makes even less sense. Before proceeding further consider reading a book on pro sound systems, Yamaha has a very good one out there.
Why not have seperate speakers for instruments & voices? Two speakers will not get the job done anyways. Even some of the locals use bi-amping for different frequencies & instruments.Why not build high quality PA speakers? Just need to know what are accurate sounding drivers. I built the guitar amps with specific tubes, speakers & circuits for certain sonics. I also built the 6-channel tube tube preamp and it sounds great.
Jimmy,You asked for advice. You got it. Why do you continue to argue the point?
I don't know who Bill F... is, but he's given you some good advice, as have I. Yet, you want to argue. See the light.
He's one of the most innovative loudspeaker designers in the business, and an editor of Audioxpress magazine. His DIY plans are recommended by Eminence, they even did a redesign of the their HL10 subwoofer specifically for one of his horn loaded sub cabs.
Why not dual systems? Because you have to move them. Bi-amping is about power, not response. Why not build high build quality PA? Why not indeed. Designing high quality pro-sound speakers is what I do for a living. But as far as accurate drivers are concerned the requirement for a speaker that's flat from 20 to 20k just isn't there in pro-sound. Pro-sound speakers are about efficiency and directivity, not flat response. Response is controlled via DSPs; there isn't a single high end pro-sound speaker system that's even useable without them, and with prices for sophisticated digital loudspeaker management systems now less than $300 it's even the rare semi-pro who doesn't use one.
Bill, I am pleased to know of your skills. I suspect a new manufacture Pyle driver is not as good as some vintage JBLs. Thus, some drivers must be better than others.
In fact most vintage drivers are not in the same league as those made today. If that were so JBL would still be producing the D130. A new manufacture Pyle (which are all sourced, Pyle has no factory)wouldn't be a match for a D130, but then it wouldn't be a match for a 2226 either, let alone the drivers that JBL uses in its high end pro-sound cabinets (and doesn't sell separately).
Bill makes a very, very good point. The advantage to modern speaker assembly(and modern reconing jobs) is that the materials are not deteriorated, the adhesives and insulations are MUCH better, and there are a few new manufacturing features that all help improve today's raw driver(vented pole pieces for instance, heatsinking bullet style pieces in the dust cap area also).
As to "building high quality PA speakers", yes, certainly, build them as best you can. I've done so for twenty years, and worked for Tom Danley for a number of years as well. I know fidelity can be had in prosound, I use it every time I take my system out. It may or may not happen by building separate speaker systems as you desire-some of the most common unavoidable(with most designs)degradations in sound quality come from adding more cabinets to the setup.
I would really recommend starting out with a pair of tops, a pair of subs, make them an active system(typically a 3 to 4 way), and see how that goes-remembering to ask specific questions about good designs and components. I already recommended a good starting point for a decent speaker design earlier.Best regards,
John
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