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I am building a PA sysytem for my kids band. I wish to use a seperate high quality mic mixer, power amp & speakers just for voice (singing).A second power amp & speakers will be used for mixing drums, keyboard & guitar amps.
Anyways, what brought forth the idea of a better quality system for singing is a few systems I heard make the singer(s) voice sound rather poor, perhaps those systems should be calleed 'mud sligners'. So, who makes an audiophile quality PA speaker? Or, should I build a pair of quality speakers? Any plans?
Follow Ups:
Hope your still out there, a late response from somebody new to this list. I'm not a pro but I have a thought on your quest. I don't think your idea is out of line. I tend to think outside of the box regularlly as well. I think voice could use more definition this day in age ("Uhh, I can't understand the wooorrds"). Your average electric guitar is without need of additional amplification in a small to med sized space. Amplifing voice reduces your power and power handling needs.
That may just play perfectly into the hands of this recommendation.
> > > KLIPSCH HERESYS < < < Not the most affordable speaker you could find, but they are always for sale on ebay. (often mentioned as being previously used for PA for an accoustic guitar/singer)
The home versions are rated at 105 wpc handling. There is a Heresy I & an updated Heresy II. There is also an "Industrial Heresy" in a road ready cabinet and rated at 125 wpc. All are fuse protected I believe. I'm not sure of the component difference between the 3. I know Klipsch has a forum on their sight for Q & A you can find out on.
I need to go there to find out as well. I own a single Heresy II and have been watching ebay for an affordable mate or components to build one. The Heresy II really screams and are pretty darn efficient @ 98 db spl. It has rock solid base response and seem pretty even on freq sound levels, not "honky" like most PA horn speakers too heavy on midrange.
I am as you are, putting together equipment for my kids band. For bigger halls these may not take the power to provide enough sound to fill it, so I'm stuck too. I've been working from the amp up for the same goal as you...for the "audiophiles PA system." My motivation is that there are more days listening to recorded music then there band days. I'd like a system to do both well, each use benifitting the other through durability and sonic quality.
I'm with ya,
James.
PS. I think I realize that one difference between the "Industrial Heresy" & the Heresy II. The spl on the Industrial is 92db & the II is at 98. The Industrials also are a ported cabinet vs. the II's sealed (base response won't be as low).
PSS. If $ is no object...There is always the "Industrial LaScallas,"
but they're crazy $$$
ANY THOUGHTS TO ADD? PLEASE LET ME KNOW.
Yes, there is no shortage of poor quality PA equipment. No, there is no need to have separate PAs for the vocals and the instruments (although the Grateful Dead did exactly that, at great expense).Assuming you buy high quality products, the limiting factor is the sound guy (aka the sound "engineer").
Most sound guys are clueless and just try to find a sound that they like, whether or not it showcases the band. Some know how to reinforce some instruments (generally bass, bass drum, snare drum), but are a fish out of water when it comes to mixing sound that actually has good balance across the entire band (vocals, lead guitar, horns, keyboards, etc., etc.).
So, it could well be that your kid's band sounds bad because the guy who's doing the sound doesn't know what he's doing.
The bottom line is: buy good stuff, and get a good engineer.
Kids band sounds great, but want better. Seeing that audio is my hobby, I am please to perform research & improve the system.
For the money you want to spend for two seperate systems
why not put all the cash together and get one nice system
that will cover everything?I have never heard of someone running two sound systems
one for voice and one for instruments...Especially for a kids band
I am an audiophile. The kids are also audiophiles after starting listening at the age of 4 years old & are now both 10 years older. Their 'standard' high quality solid-state mixer is used for instruments. Voices are not best served with instrumentation speakers & associated gear.On the other hand, we use a seperate tube type mixer for voices that is built to audiophile standards. Played thru my home entertainment DIY monoblock tube amps with high quality speakers, the voice side is so much improved they do not want to go back. I could build a line array with Scan Speak drivers, but wonder if a high quality PA based speaker exists.
We figure why settle for second best when technology exists for best quality.
I am an audiophile.Please, drop the hubris at the door.
What were you using for sound reinforcement gear before the great tube experiment? Was the band playing behind this tube system live, or were you just playing a recording of them through it?
A sound system for reinforcement is a costly thing when done well. Nobody since John Meyer back in the G.O.D. has set up separate systems for each player. It is cost prohibitive and just not worth it anymore.
Second, mixing a band live is only 1/3 equipment. You think you fight room acoustics with your "audiophile" system and room? Try a garage, crowded pub, or corner in some banquet hall at a wedding. Third, the person at the controls mixing is a huge part of how good or bad they will sound.
Typical setups at this level involve letting the musicians play through their amps for stage level and front of house(FOH). You'll run vocals, and maybe kick drum and bass through the system if you have subs. You also need to train the kids to not bring a Marshall full stack to a garage gig. Going to "11" on something that large is stupid in a small venue with a small PA.
Another big factor is the monitor system needed so the vocalists will be able to hear themselves sing over the guitars. There's a second system right there, and it contributes a lot to overall sound quality too. Without, it won't matter how great a bunch of audiophiles you've raised, they won't be able to sing on key without hearing themselves.Now, there are certainly very good sounding live systems to be built, but not knowing what exactly you've been playing around with doesn't help figure out what to tell you.
John
Agree with John, I regulary work with pro-touring sound systems where the board alone costs over $100k and you can figure in another $250k worth of speakers and amps etc., and nobody has separate systems for vocals and instruments. It's not for lack of money, it's for lack of need. Doing so at the garage band level makes even less sense. Before proceeding further consider reading a book on pro sound systems, Yamaha has a very good one out there.
Why not have seperate speakers for instruments & voices? Two speakers will not get the job done anyways. Even some of the locals use bi-amping for different frequencies & instruments.Why not build high quality PA speakers? Just need to know what are accurate sounding drivers. I built the guitar amps with specific tubes, speakers & circuits for certain sonics. I also built the 6-channel tube tube preamp and it sounds great.
Jimmy,You asked for advice. You got it. Why do you continue to argue the point?
I don't know who Bill F... is, but he's given you some good advice, as have I. Yet, you want to argue. See the light.
He's one of the most innovative loudspeaker designers in the business, and an editor of Audioxpress magazine. His DIY plans are recommended by Eminence, they even did a redesign of the their HL10 subwoofer specifically for one of his horn loaded sub cabs.
Why not dual systems? Because you have to move them. Bi-amping is about power, not response. Why not build high build quality PA? Why not indeed. Designing high quality pro-sound speakers is what I do for a living. But as far as accurate drivers are concerned the requirement for a speaker that's flat from 20 to 20k just isn't there in pro-sound. Pro-sound speakers are about efficiency and directivity, not flat response. Response is controlled via DSPs; there isn't a single high end pro-sound speaker system that's even useable without them, and with prices for sophisticated digital loudspeaker management systems now less than $300 it's even the rare semi-pro who doesn't use one.
Bill, I am pleased to know of your skills. I suspect a new manufacture Pyle driver is not as good as some vintage JBLs. Thus, some drivers must be better than others.
In fact most vintage drivers are not in the same league as those made today. If that were so JBL would still be producing the D130. A new manufacture Pyle (which are all sourced, Pyle has no factory)wouldn't be a match for a D130, but then it wouldn't be a match for a 2226 either, let alone the drivers that JBL uses in its high end pro-sound cabinets (and doesn't sell separately).
Bill makes a very, very good point. The advantage to modern speaker assembly(and modern reconing jobs) is that the materials are not deteriorated, the adhesives and insulations are MUCH better, and there are a few new manufacturing features that all help improve today's raw driver(vented pole pieces for instance, heatsinking bullet style pieces in the dust cap area also).
As to "building high quality PA speakers", yes, certainly, build them as best you can. I've done so for twenty years, and worked for Tom Danley for a number of years as well. I know fidelity can be had in prosound, I use it every time I take my system out. It may or may not happen by building separate speaker systems as you desire-some of the most common unavoidable(with most designs)degradations in sound quality come from adding more cabinets to the setup.
I would really recommend starting out with a pair of tops, a pair of subs, make them an active system(typically a 3 to 4 way), and see how that goes-remembering to ask specific questions about good designs and components. I already recommended a good starting point for a decent speaker design earlier.Best regards,
John
http://www.svconline.com/mag/avinstall_molded_loudspeakers/
Good quality will call for good money, figure over a thousand easily. The bulk of what you see out there is a 12 or 15 along with a horn in a plastic box and they sound like junk, even the pricier ones from JBL. If you're a skilled woodworker you can DIY top quality at a reasonable price, get the plans at www.billfitzmaurice.com. Speakerplans.com is another source. Their designs are obsolete but even at that still better than most commercial stuff.
I have good building skills & a load of crossover parts. Tnx.
Not a complaint, but viewing the recommended sites, one costs money for plans, yet I have no idea what is really offered. Second site has little info & is more like a dice roll as well.I played with JBL D130s & Stevens TruSonic 15"- both are not accurate drivers at all- are more like guitar speakers.
So I started a new post- who makes an accurate driver.
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