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In Reply to: RE: cMP - the open source high-end Memory Player posted by cics on December 30, 2007 at 05:42:01
Hi all,After reading this thread: 'Pro or con: Are ferrite beads at the end of usb and/or spdif cables really necessary?'
(see: http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=pcaudio&m=89660 ),
I did some google-ing too find a more specifc answer too this question than the genereal wiki-pages on ferriet beads could provide too me.While doing so I stumbled upon this article ‘The Use Of Ferrites In EMI Suppression’ from ferrite bead manufacturer 'Steward’.
http://www.steward.com/pdfs/emi/technical/Use%20of%20Ferrites%20in%20EMI.pdf (also see link below)On page 111 to 116 the article covers the use of decoupling capacitors together with ferrite beads too suppress PC board generated EMI that originates from the periodic switching of digital circuits. (see figures 19 to 23)
Seeing ferrite breads also being clamped on DC output lines on cheap AC-to-DC power supply’s, made me think:
* could ferrite beads placed on the P24 and the P4 power lines, improve sound quality?
(Just as smoothing caps are placed on the P4 line too improve sound quality.)It also sprang to mind that placing ferrite beads on the 12 V volt AC power supple lines coming from a linear PSU that feeds a Pico PSU and/or the P4, also might further improve sound quality.
Are there any inmates using a cMP setup, who already tried this?
Since ferrite beads are cheap (1 – 3 euro’s depending on type/model) and ferrite beads are very easy too clamp onto the P24 and P4 DC power supply lines and/or too the 12 volt DC power supply lines coming from a linear PSU, I already ordered a few too find out myself if there are any audible effects. But it will take a few days for the ferrite beads to be delivered.
So meanwhile I’m curious if any other inmates already have tried too clamp ferrite beads onto the P24 / P4 DC power supple lines too suppress HF noise on these DC power supply lines. Or, already have clamped ferrite beads onto the 12 volt dc power lines coming from the linear PSU that feed a Pico and/or the P4.
If yes, my question is: did the ferrite beads have any impact on sound quality in a cMP setup?
Mark
fully optimized cMP2 PC -> ESI Juli@ -> Van den Hul Optocoupler MkII-> Lavry Black DA10 -> XLR Mogami Gold -> Klein & Hummel O300
Edits: 05/27/11 05/28/11Follow Ups:
Mark here is an interesting/easy way to test ferrites (for those that haven't tried ferrites)and a nice way to use those unused granite digital power supplies. Take one of these gd's solder in some fast caps (small value oscons for example) into the pata conector (2 inners are grounds 2 outers are + 5v and 12 volt supplies). Now put some Radio Shack ferrites before and after the caps (to get a pi filter). Then put some ferrites on the ac feed to the gd. Now try the gd on a hdd in your cmp...real nice sq pop.
I replaced one of my antec fed hdd's with this setup and it is better. The antec is fully pi filtered.
I am joining in on the part. Just getting started. No listening impressions yet.
Ferrites placed on CPU fan power leads, P4 CPU power plug, P24 motherboard power plug. I used the P4 and P24 extension cord method to facilitate installing the ferrite clamps.
Based on some dissatisfaction with I2S and the Jkeny's post in Diyaudio on spdif vs I2s I decided to switch back to spdif as an experiment. I preferred spdif immediately and am trying for my 3rd day just to see (hear) if I respond favorably over time. I have so far. Anyway I went out and got more ferrites and placed them over my spdif cable (I should try over I2S cables now that I think about it). Yes same impact. At 1st I was worried that I may be throwing out some bits with the noise but after browsing some of your references it seems as if ferrites take care of 50-500 mhz and I believe spdif (esp with 16/44 signa) is much lower than that. I don't know if it works on glass toslink but maybe you could try it. Ferrites ... the gift that keeps on giving.
Hi Theo,
I have no experience myself with I2S, but I can understand the attractiveness of the concept to separate the clock signal from the audio-bit stream. But that is from a conceptual point of view. From a practical, real world point of view I doubt if I’m able too execute it properly myself. Especially knowing how VERY DIFFICULT (!!) it even is for professionals too accurately send, transport, receive and process clock signals. I don’t think I can technically execute that properly myself in such a way that it will outperform a proper executed S/Pdif connection. But these are just my thoughts on this matter. I have no real world practical experience with it.
Also, even on the best studio DAC’s money can buy (Prism, Lavry, Weiss, etc) I don’t see an I2S input. If this where a better way of doing things, it would certainly be fitted by these and other companies.
So I concentrate on more simple things which I can execute properly myself given the limited set of tools I have (lack of knowledge, skills and proper equipment).
In frequency/impedance graphs provided by the ferrite manufacturers I see that ferrites have a bell shaped resistance curve that peaks somewhere between 100 – 300 mHz. The official S/Pif specs say that the frequency can be between 100kHz and 6Mhz. A CD player uses 3mHz.
But still I don’t put ferrites on un-shielded S/Pdif cables. Given the theory what an electrical digital signal is (square block pulses) I fear malformation of the block shapes (misshaped eye patterns)
Of course ferrites can reduce HF noise traveling on the shield of an S/Pdif cable, but that HF noise shouldn’t be there at the shield in first place. It would be my strategy too battle that (possible) noise at some other place.
Ferrites on a glass toslink ???? :-)
I know you said you didn’t feel for trying too ad some caps before (and some smaller behind) the ferrites because your P24 line was already fully occupied with ferrites.
On the risk of being ‘pushy’, I again will give the advice too try and place some caps.
Especially with use of an P24 extension cable it’s very easy too do.
You don’t even have too so solder !! Just use a set of needle-nose pliers too push the metal legs of the caps in place between the plastic outside of the P24 connector and the metal wire snap on inside the plastic connector. (click on pictures below too enlarge and too see how easy this can be done) No soldering needed ! I just check with my multi-meter too see if the metal legs make good contact. That’s all.
Van on filtering, demping, ect
Van on filtering, demping, ect
Tomorrow a variety of some 30 oscon caps will arrive. Caps have such a profound and positive effect on sound quality difference in my setup when placed before and after the ferrites, that I will start searching for the best combinations before and after the ferrites. And than eventually, when I found the right combination, I will solder the caps onto the P24 before and after the ferrites.
By the way: I now know why I can cold boot into 110 mHz busspeed. These days I experimented a lot with caps on and off the P24 before and after the ferrites and I discovered that it is the caps on the P24 mobo socket.
For quite some time already I used as much extra caps on the P24 as the Pico or Antec ATX would tolerate on the 3.3 and 5 volt line. The Pico doesn’t tolerate much. Only some 330 uF per voltage. But the Antec ATX tolerates very large values of 4700 uF per voltage. But I never did try how low I could go. I just put them there as extra current-reservoir and noise shunt. Although I didn’t hear any SO improvement at all (which I had expected because on the P4 extra caps will give some SQ improvement). But I just left the caps on the P24, because I also did not hear any sound quality degradation also.
Only when I started realizing that the lower the swithing-speeds of logic on the MoBo, the lower the HF noise production there will be on the MoBo, I tried how low I could go with busspeeds.
But I never realized that it was due too those caps on the P24, which I already have on the P24 for over 1,5 years now.
Mark
I guess you are saying ferrites on spdif cable are not recommended but what is the speed of a 16/44 propagating through spdif? If it is < 10mhz ( & I think it is < 10) I tried it anyway and it seems to work.With respect to caps on p24 right now I have zero room but since you so politely encourage me to try I may get a p24 extension and try.
:)
Edits: 06/30/11
Hi Theo,
‘not recommended’ Well, I don’t dare too do any recommendations.
I’m no expert nor educated or work in digital audio electronics, I was more of thinking out loud.
But if it works, than it works.
I trust your equipment and ears.
I only wonder where that noise is coming from.
That is why I thought about fighting that noise at some other place.
Although I don’t have any clue where too look else.
For the S/Pdif specs I just googled and I found them quickly.
This was what google presented too me as first link.
http://www.epanorama.net/documents/audio/spdif.html
Mark
Based on your comments I took out the spdif ferrites and listened and I prefer them in by a wide margin. Interestingly I tried listening @ 192 sample rate and with ferrites it seems dull and missing info but not @ 44 sr.
Anyway these ferrites are something special in audio pc's. What I don't understand is the original thread from AA that you referenced in your original post on ferrites. Most posters there said it was not recommended to use ferrites period. I guess not knowing any better in these eletrical pc things I just have to try everything.
Hi Theo,
That thread was about putting them on digital lines that transport usb and/or spdif signals.
So I fully agree not putting them on these digital lines unless there is a very very dirty component on either side that might throw extra additional HF dirt into the data line.
But that thread made me aware of that i also see them sometimes power lines (my dell switching loader, some wallwarts, ect) I suddenly realized that may be ferrites might possibly also work on the power lines comming from the ATX.
Mark
Hey Mark,
I think that is why power cords can make a big difference depending on how they handle emi.
Some manufactures agree i think and when I was fitting my dirty supply for ferrites I noticed that there was already a big one built into the psu. Here is a link to the review and on the sixth picture down you can see the ferite. There is as much sticking out as there is inside the case. Might be why I liked this psu.
No one here remembers the bending of our minds
Hi Dawnrazor,
Thank you for this.
I already was interested for quite a while in ways too filter the output of a switching ATX PSU for my cMP setup. But using a classic filter concept containing a combination of chokes and caps is very hard too calculate. Big chance one will end up with a filter that rings/resonates.
Fortunately I red that the chance of ringing is much less when a combination of ferrites and caps is used. However there still is a chance of ringing/resonance, it is much less and much easier too control.
As ferrites are lossy components the needed calculations are also somewhat lossy. A rough approximation is enough. At least: this is what I roughly understand from articles on the net from TI, Alterra, Analog Devices, EMAC and others.
I see it is an Enermax PSU.
RME used too recommend Enermax PSU’s on there website until some years ago.
When RME changed their website these recommendations didn’t re-appear on their new website.
So I think its not a bad choice at all.
Mark
N.B. Also XP optimizations tips did not re-appear on the new RME website.
I still use one of RME’s XP registry tips too disable CD-rom ‘polling’/ autostart in registry.
I can't get below 145 stably. How do you do it? I know you mentioned that you thought that running ssd os and a NAS allowed you to get there. I was running 143 and I kept going wobbly on stability and I've got the same Kingston ssd as you. What do you run V core at? I run .875 volts but it reads .83 on cpu-z. Maybe you could just list all your settings cause I'm curious why I cant get below 145. Yes I have 120 volt ac and it usually runs 117 or so in the summer. I set my dirty psu at 11.95 volts and that powers my cpu and all my disks. My other clean psu (yes a switcher) is also set at 11.95 volts and runs only my p24 input.
Hi Theo,
I made a lot of changes too my setup and gear before I noticed I could go that low.
Here’s a report on what I changed over some period of time before I discovered it.
Too make a long story (below) short, I think it is because the Audyn caps (bipolar elko glatt) I put on the 3.3 and 5 volt headers of the ESI Juli@ digital part.
But hereafter a complete report on things that I all changed before I noticed I could go this low.
* caps on Juli@ digital part
I had nothing else lying around when I wanted too try some caps on these power pins. The only thing I had lying around than was:
- 1 polymer cap (the red one) 1uF
- 1 Oscon 47 uF
- 1 bipolar Audyn cap 47 uF (intended for use in speaker crossovers)
- 1 bipolar Audyn cap 100 uF (intended for use in speaker crossovers)
I bundled the 1 uF + 47 uF Oscon + 47 uF Audyn and put that on the 3.3 V
And the 100 uF Audyn on 5 Volt. See picture.
Van on filtering, demping, ect
Looks very messy because I taped the sides of the Audyn caps and the Audyn connection wires, as I was afraid for a short circuit somehow when dropping them in place. I noticed I nice little pop in sound quality. And that’s it and just left the caps there.
* new HTPC casing
Only a few months ago I switched over from the Zahlman case too a SilverStone SST-ML03B case. Launched in feb 2011. Perfect timing from Silverstone as we where about too switch over too an new AV cabinet. This new AV cabinet would no longer rest on the floor, but would be hanging from the walls. That new AV cabinet is mounted against the wall just beneath the flat screen TV, which is also mounted against the wall.
However these free hanging AV cabinets are not so spacious and also much less deep than the an AV cabinet that rests on the floor. So I had to look for a much less bulky HTPC case. I found the SilverStone SST-ML03B too be ideal for this. It has enough space inside and also in exactly all the right places where you need that space. It has standard audio gear size. And best of all it only 69,- euro !! It’s a steel. Don’t know why it took the PC casing industry so long to come up with this format.
This time I not only put bituminous felt pads on the outside bottom and inside lit of the HTPC case. But I also but a slap of bituminous felt pad inside the casing underneath the mobo. So this case is, also like I had the Zahlman case, heavily dampened with bituminous felt pads.
* shielding all 230 AC cables (complete re-wiring)
I also think it has nothing too do with a complete re-wiring of all (!) 230 AC wiring. When I moved all gear into this new wall mounted AV cabinet, all wires involved where very close to each other. It was a messy, bulky spaghetti of wires running criss cross everywhere inside and on the back of the cabinet.
Nice cable dressing was particularly very hard too achieve in the small 20 mm space between the back of the cabinet and the wall. All wires strictly have too reside in the narrow space behind the cabinet and the wall, because it is a really ugly and messy sight too see them hanging down the wall from behind the AV cabinet. So because of the limited possibilities for good cable dressing, I decided too make a bold move and too replace all regular 230 wires with shielded 230 AC cable for every apparatus that is in need of 230 AC.
(Flat screen TV, HD TV decoder, linear PSU’s, Klein & Hummel, Lavry DAC s, ATX PSU, ect)
It took al lot time too finish this operation. Luckily al most all components had such ‘strain relief through puts’ (see picture).
Van on filtering, demping, ect
So is was not all too difficult too remove the regular 230 AC wires from the inside, and too re-use the ‘strain relief through put connector’. As the shielded 230 AC cables has a bigger diameter, the shield has too end here at the outside of the casing. However the wires inside the shielded cable can pass trough, which allow for the original ‘strain relief through put’ too be re-used.
* strict separation of dirty and clean real earths
All shields on the new 230 AC shielded cables are grounded at the plug-side too a real earth. Also this shielding is strictly divided in two groups of apparatus: a ‘dirty real earth’ for dirty components and a ‘clean real earth’.
The whole operation took almost a month before I had complete finished the transition too this new wall mounted AV cabinet (process time off course was much shorter).
I also looked at the LAN connections of the cMP setup and the powering of the 3COM switch I use. In this article ‘The trouble with wallwarts’ http://www.elmac.co.uk/pdfs/Trouble_with_wallwarts.pdf , I red that even this can be important. So the wallwart (in the meter board down the hall) also got an extra ferrite on the DC output too the 3COM switch. However I didn’t notice a sound quality change.
It’s only after all these changes that I noticed that I could go so low all of a sudden. My guess is, that it’s the caps on the juli@.
However in short time I expect too know. With the ferrites for flat ribbon cables, I also ordered some new oscon caps. Next week (or so) I want to remove the Audyn speaker crossover caps and put these oscon caps on the Juli@ digital part. Then I will know if these Audyn speaker crossover caps caused it.
I don’t think my under volting settings will matter much. I pay no special attention too it.
I have the CPU undervolted at 1 volt V core. Just preventing the CPU too get hot. Sometimes I run it at 0,95 V. But this makes little difference in power consumption (current) or produced heat. I don’t hear any SQ differences.
All DC power from both linears too both pico’s is at 12 volt DC. Same for 12 V DC from Antec ATX.
Mark
Thanks Mark. I have external power to at least the Juli@ 3.3 volt supply. I also have more caps on the 5 volt supply but I use .875 volts V core. Maybe I'll try 1 volt and see how low I can go for core speed.
I've got the G31 mobo but I doubt its that. Right now I am trying .95 volts and 140 core speed. I'll run this for afew days then try 135.
Hi Theo,
* caps on the Juli@ digital part
Today I removed the bulky Audyn elco bipolar speaker crossover caps and replaced them with two Oscon 330 uF caps that arrived yesterday (along with the flat ferrites for ribbon cables).
I still can warm boot into 100 and cold boot into 110 – 115 (I don’t know why this isn’t always the same value). So the Audyn caps on the digital part play no role in it.
These Oscon caps again brought a clear noticeable improvement in SQ. Hearing what SQ improvement is achieved only trough changing caps, I think i’m going too closely study how I can power the digital part by battery like you do. I expect some significant SQ improvement.
* About the ferrites on the P24: use them with decoupling caps.
I feel I have a clear picture now on how ferrites on the P24 best can be used. It is just as one can read in several articles: ferrites are best used together with decoupling caps.
So I placed caps on the 3.3 , 5 and 12 volt lines (between the Antec PSU and the ferrites).
This results in a very significant SQ improvement!
Without the caps in place, ferrites on the P24 give a nice little subtle improvement.
But with the caps added it’s a bigger improvement than adding a SSD. So not small!
What is even more astonishing, I do these experiments with the Antec ATX. Because the Pico can’t handle big caps (4700 uF + 47uF + 0,47 uF) on the P24 because pico’s can’t deliver the big rush in currents too the 4700 cap when switched on.
* After 4 weeks of tweaking with ferrites the preliminary conclusion is:
With a lot of ferrites + decoupling caps on the Antec ATX the SQ is very good.
I don’t feel any need too swap the Pico back in place.
The Antex + (a lot of) ferrites + decoupling caps sounds very good too me.
Mark
I added another by pass polystyrene cap across the 5 volt section of Juli@. Yes it added to the sq improvement provided by the ferrites. Thanks Mark!
Hi Theo,
Whow, same thoughts were coming up on the other side of ‘the pound’.
This afternoon I did exactly the same.
And…. with exactly the same results.
I still had some glare. This bothered and irritated me. I thought: may be some extra HF frequency filtering is needed. So I place two extra caps (Oscon 47 uF + 1uF polymer) on the 3.3 V of the Juli@ digital part. See Picture. And … with exactly the same results !
Van on filtering, demping, ect
I like this.
To me it shows these improvements are not random.
If we both independently achieve the same results.
I also did some further experiments with the flat ferrites for ribbon cables.
See picture.
Van on filtering, demping, ect
A ‘pile of charcoal’ works. But also these flat ferrites for ribbon cable work.
However crucial in both situations is: adding decoupling caps too the 3.3, 5 and 12 volt lines before the ferrites (this way a 2nd order HF filter is created (I think))
The effect of ferrites is 4 times bigger, when ferrites are combined with caps.
If one does that, than ferrites really bring a major SQ improvement
More to come.
I got glare or what I call excess highs so I took the cap out. All this stuff(i.e., tweaking etc) IMO is simply finding a combo that sounds real then stop and listen to music. Then after a few days when you get bored with your sound try something else. Isn't this exactly what a diy audiophile does? Its definitely what I do.
I know that sounds a bit anti science. Let me restate my tweaking philosophy. I believe in the theory of constraints. I learned some of this while working in manufacturing for a while but I think it applies to audio as well. As an example (applied to pc audio tweaking) when one adds a cap to the 5 volt supply on Juli@ like I did) and while it should sound better it doesn't, that means something else is constraining or limiting the output (in this case the output is excellent sound). Anyway when I reach a constraint like this I look elsewhere for what may be holding back a breakthrough to better output. Is my foundation for Juli@ ps as good as it can be in terms of acoustic isolation, is my Buf32s in need of tweaking, etc etc I think you get the idea. But in the end its all about getting good music. Oh by the way while accompanying my wife to Bed Bath and Beyond (a US store for stuff for bedroom, bath, kitchen) I picked up a half inch butcher block which I used to replace my quarter inch plywood base on which I place roller bearings for my Juli@ LiFePo4 battery based ps. And so it goes.
Hi Theo
It doesn’t sound ‘anti science’ too me at all. Sometimes also preconditions first must be met too make something work or too make the effect noticeable.
If you like searching for ways too better sound quality than I have some new not so controversial but also some controversial tweaks too try out if you like.
From reports in the past, I know you have a revealing system that lets you hear minute little changes in sound. Like playing a music file from an USB drive or reducing USB polling frequency. All these are very little improvements in sound quality but your system is able too let them hear too you.
I have 3 new to try.
* First tweak: caps in front and after the ferrites.
This one is not controversial at all. It can be red in almost al articles on using ferrites for suppressing conducted EMI. It is about the using caps together with ferrites
Do some googling on ferrites and capacitor and you will find articles about ferrite based filter networks from Texas Instruments, analog devices, altera, ect.
In there articles can be red that there should be a capacitor in front and a cap after the ferrites.
In front of the ferrites the cap functions as a bypass capacitor to provide a very low-impedance path too ground and thus allow HF noise to pass through to ground. The second function can be to help compensate for voltage droop when the mobo demands large currents peaks.
Also a smal(ler) capacitor is needed after the ferrites too suppress possible resonance.
I don’t have enough knowledge too exactly calculate the values of the the caps needed in front and after the ferrites. So I just tried some caps I had at hand.
I do know that the caps used must have good HF qualities. So I used a standard triplet of caps which I also use on the P4 as smoothing caps. The tripplet is a combination of a Panasonic FC 4700 uF + Oscon 47 uF+ 0,47 uF. I hope the large Panasonic will provide a nice current reservoir and I hope the 37 uF Oscon + 0.47 uF polymer combo will provide good HF shunting.
I placed one such triplets on a 3.3 volt line and an other triplets on a 5 volt line of the P24 (before the ferrites) Too my ears it greatly enhanced the effect of the ferrites (doubled / tripled it).
With these 2 capacitor triplets in place on the 3.3 and 5 volt line in front of the ferrites, I also placed such a triplet after the ferrites. This also brought a noticeable change in sound. But I don’t know if I like what I hear.
So today I ordered some new smal 47 uF Oscons to put behind the ferrites. In litterature I read the caps after the ferrites can be 100 to 200 times smaller than the caps before. See if some smaller Oscons after the ferrites will do the trick.
So if you like tweaking, try and listen how caps enhance the effect of ferrits in your setup.
* 2nd tweak.
This is a controversial one. While just playing with my android phone too move the cursor around through LAN with use of the RemoteDroid server program, I noticed that moving around the cursor added less (EXTRA !) latency than moving the cursor around trough use of the USB mouse. Note: the java server app also ads a bunch of latency. But moving the cursor only ads little extra latency on top of this. Somewhat baffled by this I searched for my old PS2 mouse.
I enabled the PS2 mouse settings in hardware restarted and noticed that moving the cursor around through use of the old fashion PS2 mouse added hardly any extra latency!
-> Now here comes the tweak.
From Reylands I learned that reducing the USB polling frequency removed some glare and ‘relaxed’ the overall sound quality. Reducing USB polling also brought slightly more micro details.
Since moving the cursor around trough use of the USB mouse causes highest (EXTRA) latency off all methods, I thought: why not completely remove the USB mouse? No USB mouse means: no USB polling frequency at all, since all USB ports can be completely disabled in bios and software. No extra separate power needed too power the USB bracket. No matter how clean this extra power too the USB bracket might be, the cleanest power is using no power at all. There is also no possibility that HF noise from the dirty Pico will somehow travel through the USB bracket onto the MoBo via the USB socket.
So I decided too disable all USB root ports in the hardware manager and enabled ‘PS2 mouse’ in the hardware manager. I unplugged the USB mouse connection from the MoBo socket and dirty Pico and disabled all USB in the BIOS.
From memory I can remember that in a standard cMP setup the PS2 mouse sounded a little less.
But now after 1,5 years of power supply improvements and with all USB activity disabled, using a good old fashion PS2 mouse sounds better too me. This can easily be heard.
I know, this almost sounds like blasphemy: telling a cMP user too disable all USB activity unplug it from the mobo socket and unplug it from the dirty PSU and instead reconnect the old fashion ‘dirty’ PS2 mouse and old fashion keyboard.
But never the less: would you like too try and let me know what the effect on SQ is in your cMP setup?
* 3thrd tweak
With the USB bracket removed from duty, the dirty Pico in my setup now only powers the little Kingstone 8 Gb SSD. Since the Pico is also a switcher it also throws HF noise around. May this HF noise can travel through the SSD via the sata–cable onto the MoBo.
So I decided too also place ferrites on the 12 and 5 volt lines that feed the SSD. Because the power lines of the molex connector too the SSD are short I only managed too place 2 ferrites on these lines. I ‘coiled’ the lines around a little paper pellet too make sure that the power wires are tightly pressed against the inside walls of the ferrite when closing the ferrite clamp.
May be ‘the placebo effect’ could fool me, but I think a notice a very slight SQ improvement. Same amount as reducing ‘USB polling frequency’ or playing from USB stick. So very small but noticable.
Let me know if you are going too try some of these tweaks.
Mark
Hey Mark. I dont have any room on my p24 line for caps or more ferrites so I cant try that. But I do use an old ps/2 mouse and I have put ferrites around the ssd ps. So I already did 2 out of 3.
Excellent follow up, reporting and feedback as always Mark. I'm still good at 140 core speed and .95 v core. I like the sound better than .875 v core and 145 speed...a lot. After a day or so I'll lower speed but feel no need to right now.
Hi Theo,
I forgot. I use a G41M-ES2L.
May be it's the mobo.
But I don't think that's the reason
Also with this mobo type I never could go lover than 135
Hi all,
After one day of clamping, these are my experiences untill now.
It is a long copy text because I want too give a detailed description of my setup and what I did so far on power supply improvement.
But unfortunately I am not educated in electrics and (digital) electronics. Just a hobbyist. So it’s likely that i’m not aware of ‘white spots’ in my knowledge.
A white spot is an area of knowlegde that I don’t have, but also I don’t know that there is something I should know. If I knew that I didn’t knew, than it would be a black spot and I could start looking for the knowledge needed.
So I welcome all comments, corrections, ect etc.
So in the text below, I will give some background on what I did and why I did it. So anyone can correct or comment on my approach and can correct false assumptions and lack of knowlegde and give tips for other better approaches.
* Why I wanted to try ferrite clamp on beads
I wanted too experiment with filtering HF noise on the power supply lines too the mobo. Why?
Using a linear PSU too power the MoBo has a significant positive effect on sound quality. It is said that this is because of less noise and ripple.
Putting decoupling caps (smoothing caps) on the P4 power lines has a positive effect on SQ because these caps probably smooth the ripple and may also shunt some HF noise. But using large capacitance too create a current reservoir too smooth ripple, will not shunt very high HF frequencies. Putting litlle by-pass caps on the bigger caps helps somewhat. But still is not very effective on the very high frequency’s I want to filter.
I thought about filtering with 2 nd order L/C filters or R/C filters. But calculations too see if the these 2nd order filters will not start too ring, are much, much too difficult for me.
A more simple approach would be a combination of ferrites and capacitance. As suggested in the article from ferrite manufacturer Steward. Also google on” The Use Of Ferrites In EMI Suppression’ and one will find many more articles on this.
Ferrites provide a high resistance too HF frequency’s with much less chanche on ringing . Ferrite’s provide a high resistance for frequencies in the range from 50 mHz too 500 mHz. For exact data see the data sheet of the specific clamp on ferrite bead that you want to use.
Things too keep in mind when using Ferrite’s
When reading article on 'The Use Of Ferrites In EMI Suppression', it is pointed out that feeding DC current through a ferrite, will degrade the effect that a ferrite bead has on HF frequency’s. When too much DC current flows through ferrite, it becomes saturated and the filtering effect on HF frequency’s is lost or is much less. See articles that discuss the effects of ‘DC & Low Frequency AC Bias Effects And Saturation’. Also inmate Bibo01 was probably pointing at this.
So here’s what I tried so far.
(with some background info, as too ‘why’ and ‘how’)
* Starting with the electrical 230 source in my house.
In The Netherlands every home gets 3 times 230 Volt AC delivered. These three 230 AC voltages are delivered with a fase-shift of 120 degree’s. One can recognize these three fase groups, through the grouping of the spurs in the meterboard. On the meterboard one can see that the spurs are arranged in three groups of spurs. Every group of spurs lurks from one of those three 230 AC voltages.
When installing a dedicated spur, it’s wise too place the dedicated spur on the most clean 230 AC voltage fase. In my case I toke it from the 230 AC voltage fase that only feeds the laundry dryer and the washing machine. Nothing else lurks of that fase. So it’s the most clean 230 AC volt fase too put the dedicated audio spur on. Provided that the washing machine and laundry dryer are not running this is the most clean fase in my house. How much HF pollution already is delivered at my doorstep through the electrical net, I can only guess, But putting 2 big ferrite beads on this dedicated 230 AC voltage line coming from the dedicated spur, makes no audible difference at all.
* 230 connections too the used gear.
All cableling of the dedicated audio spur and also all power cords are shielded. The shields are only grounded at one end of the cable too a real earth.
Only the active Klein & Hummel speakers and my Lavry Black DAC are on this dedicated audio spur. The Lavry DAC has an Epcos line filter in the power cord. This way I try too prevent the Lavry spoiling the dedicated audio spur. The lavry has a switching PSU inside, so one never knows. Putting the lavry on another spur makes makes no sound quality difference. So probably the Lavry is not pollution so much back inside the dedicated audio spur.
* I use two linear PSU’s and 2 pico’s
They are arranged in 2 groups. A dirty group and a clean group. Just a Cics suggests doing with 2 ATX PSU’s. I use that same concept (dirty and clean), but through using 2 pico’s
- clean section: linear PSU -> Pico 160 XT on the P24
- dirty section: linear PSU -> Pico 200 which powers the SSD and USB
(the P4 PSU line is taken directly from the 'dirty' linear PSU and bypasses the Pico 200).
Both linear PSU’s are on the same 230 AC outlet and on the same 230 AC spur with a real earth. So the two linear supplies both can see each other through the 230 Volt AC connection and also through the safety earth connection.
I don’t know if the 2 linear PSU’s also can see each other on the DC side through the mobo somehow.
Putting the 2 linear PSU’s on 2 different spurs with real earth connections, has no positive effect on sound quality.
Putting the 2 linear PSU’s on a clean kitchen spur (with only the dishwasher on it) makes no difference in SQ.
* other sphericals connected with might inject HF noise.
- NAS
I use a NAS which might inject noise onto the MoBo.
Connecting the LAN cable makes no difference in sound quality.
This might be prevented, because LAN sockets are transformer decoupled by design. May be this feature prevents HF noise. But being AC, the HF noise should be able too get trough these decoupling transformers.
So I’m a little puzzled here.
Too my utmost surprise: connecting my Sony TV too the VGA port, also makes no difference in sound quality. I had expected the TV too inject much HF noise into the MoBo.
However the TV is earthed trough a real earth connection via the coax cable. The coax cable has a real earth connection in the meterboard when entering the house. May this helps draining HF noise?
* HIGH QUALITY optical out to Lavry DAC made a real improvement.
As suggested by Cics using an optical connection which provides galvanic isolation between DAC and MoBo yields a significant SQ improvement. But only when HIGH QUALITY (!) toslink cables are used.
Using the standard toslink optical cables that came with my RME sound cards makes no difference at all. Standard quality toslink cable sounds the same as balanced AES/EBU from my Lynx AES16 PCI card.
Surprisingly by far the best is: optical out by means of a HIGH QUALITY optical toslink.
Just as Cics recommends in his cMP recipe.
* Why I tried ferrites in this setup.
So I still had the nagging feeling that there still must be al lot of HF noise around or a ground loop somehow. Otherwise: why would using a high quality toslink connection make such a significant SQ improvement? Right ?
This is why I wanted too see if blocking HF noise traveling around, would yield any sound quality improvement.
So I just started (more or less without any rational strategy) placing ferrites on DC power supply cords too the MoBo.
* Ferrite clamp on P4.
To my surprise placing a large ferrite clamp on the psu line feeding the P4 coming from a linear PSU (!!), made a significant SQ improvement.
More improvement than placing smoothing caps on the P4. So definitely worth taking the trouble.
So is it a lousy linear PSU? I don’t think so as it already had made a sound quality improvement when not using the swithing ATX psu to the P4.
Placing ferrites just makes a second significant SQ improvement. In my setup: equal too not using the P4 from a Aerth watts ATX switching PSU but using a linear PSU.
* many ferrite clamps on individual P24 voltage lines.
Just one big ferrite clamp on the P24 has hardly any effect on SQ.
But clamping many each on individual + 3.3, +5, + 12 volt wires (each combined with 1 black 0 Volt line) also makes a nice SQ improvement.
The P24 extension cable has now 9 ferrite clamps on it. 5 clamps on each individual red 5 volt DC lines, 3 on each orange 3,3 line and 1 on the combined yellow +12volt lines.
* DC bias.
I probably make a lot DC bias faults by clamping ferrites with out knowing the currents through each wire. so I want to start measuring the current in all lines of the P24.
Knowing all currents in each wire from the P24 extension cable, I might be able too make better +/- combinations which cause less DC bias.
* Is there really much more HF noise in my setup than others?
So I really don’t know if my setup has lots of HF noise traveling around, compared too other cMP setups. So if anybody sees any basic flaws in my setup, please let me know what you think.
As I can’t think of any basic flaws which would create a lot of HF noise in my cMP setup or setup flaws that create unwanted ground loops.
* optimizing the use of Ferrites
Until now I just clamped around with no real strategy. If anybody has tips on where and when ferrites are more effective, let me know. Any suggestions welcome.
* adding caps on both sides of the ferrite?
What about placing extra caps on both sides of the ferrites, to shunt HF frequency’s that see the high resistance of the ferrite ahead and thus will prefer traveling through the caps? Any suggestions here?
I found it encouraging that TheoB also found the same SQ improvements in his setup. Especially because I know his Martin Logans are extremely revealing but neutral, electrostatic speakers which will let Theo hear every minute change in ambiance, micro details, etc.
So everybody start clamping!
Ferrites only cost 1 to 3 euro each.
Just try them and report back.
Mark
Hey Mark,
I looked into buying some of these and there is a range of impedance and frequencies.
Did your ferrites vary, or were they all the same. And if so what were the impedance and frequencies?
No one here remembers the bending of our minds
Hi Dawnrazor,
I first ordered some of these 3 types + some little ferrite bars.
I chose the ferrites on highest resistance possible but at the same time looking at hole diameter.
250 and 240 ohms at 100mhz
Types: RKCF0-10-A5 and RCKF-13-A5
See: http://www.produktinfo.conrad.com/datenblaetter/500000-524999/502137-da-01-en-GETEILTER_FERRITRINGKERN_RKCF_13_A5.pdf
After I red http://www.elmac.co.uk/pdfs/ferrite.pdf : “Using ferrites for interference suppression”. See link below.
I bought much more ferrits. Because chapter 5 (page 4) reads:
Chapter 5. Choosing and using.
Size and shape
There are two rules of thumb in selecting a ferrite for highest impedance:
• where you have a choice of shape, longer is better than fatter;
• get the maximum amount of material into your chosen volume that you can afford.
So I placed a second order. Now only the RKCF-13-A5 and some of these ferrite bars
Ferrietstaaf (Conrad Electronic)
And also just a few minutes ago as a third order UPC also dropped these flat ones at the doorstep:
Lintkabel met ferrrietkern RFP1-26-28-A5 (Conrad Electronic)
I ordered flat split core ferrites for ribbon cable because I red about the use of them on page 7 chapter 6 ‘secondary effects’ it says:
If the ferrite is placed next to a grounded metal surface, such as the chassis, an L-C filter is formed which uses the ferrite both as an inductor and as a distributed capacitor. This will improve the filtering properties compared to using the ferrite in free space. For best effect the cable should be against the ferrite inner surface and the ferrite itself should be flat against the chassis so that no air gaps exist; this can work well with ribbon or flexi cable assemblies.
This look very interesting because my silverstone SST-ML03B case is made of iron (not aluminum) and the individual wires of the P24 can be spread out too make a flat ribbon style cable. :-)
I possibly try too test these flat ones this weekend already.
See what it will bring.
Mark
Mark say more about individual elements of p24. How did you know which wires to pair? Did you strip off the sheathing around p24 to get @ individual pairs?
Hi Theo,
I was wondering if you did some more experimenting with clamping extra ferrite beads onto the P24 lines?
I now have also very good results on the P24. Same results as on the P4. My cMP setup never sounded so good !
More micro details, background is ‘blacker than black’, broad and deep soundstage, highs are very detailed but at the same time smooth and ‘creamy’. It’s the same type of sound quality improvement as I when installing an SSD.
It is somewhat amazing and puzzeling that nobody else than you reported a sound quality improvement
I think they did not clamp enough ferrite beads on to the P24.
The P4 only needs 1 or 2.
But the P24 needs ‘heavy clamping’.
I have now 11 ferrite beads clamped onto the P24 lines.
* What I tried to optimize the effect of the ferrites clamps on the P24.
- To prevent DC biases as much as possible, ideally the + and – currents through a ferrite clamp should be equal. So when clamping individual voltage lines, I make sure that at least one black wire runs trough every ferrite bead when clamping individual voltage lines.
- a ferrite bead should be snugly around a wire to make sure that the magnetic field of the wire is closest too the ferrite.
But there is a lot of air around the 2 mm wires inside a ferrite beads hole of 12 mm. So mostly the wires are not really close too the ferrite. To push the wires against the ferrite wall, I also clamp some little paper of plastic object inside the ferrite clamp. This little object pushes the wires against the ferrite when I close the clamp.
- I also thought of using a 6 mm iron bolt inside the ferrite to push the wires against the ferrite. But since iron is magnetic I’m not sure if it will enhance the working of the ferrite bead or if the irion bold will degrade the working of the ferrite bead.
- Today I also ordered little round ferrite bars (8mm diameter 50 mm long costing 0,89 euro cents) too put inside the ferrite clamp. Also too push the ‘+’ wire and the black ‘0 volt’ wire against the ferrite inside walls. My be this even has a better effect than using a paper of plastic object inside.
With these ‘optimizations’ and with the use of 11 ferrite beads on the P24, the effect is really amazing !
It’s definitely not subtle and a rather big sound quality improvement.
Which easily equals the transfer from an ATX to an Linear PSU on the P4
Or equals the transfer from a HDD to a SSD.
I’m a little surprised that there are no other enthusiastic reports from other inmates.
I painstakingly checked and measured my system for setup faults (ground loups, possible extra noise sources, etc, etc) but I can’t really find anything wrong with it.
So I hope you did (or are going to do) some more experiments with ferrites on the P24.
Results so far:
Clamping the P4 works and is easy.
Clamping the P4 gives good results, both when using a linear PSU but also when using a standard ATX PSU. I tried both.
Clamping the P24 also gives very good results, but needs ‘massive clamping’.
At least in my system it needs 8 to 11 properly and carefully (!) clamped ferrites
Mark
After a day or so of listening I have to tell you I have had several days of what I call 'religious experiences' while playing back many of my music files. The sense of depth and large space is extremely good...better than I have experienced ims before. But what is most rewarding is the unraveling of detail in densely orchestrated pieces where I have been hearing instruments in new more lifelike ways. Lots of air. Lots of definition ... not hyper detail but natural robust lower midrange/bass timbre and better highs. At 1st the tweak can almost be offputting like some information has been deleted/lost but after a few hours its like ...where did that come from.
So bottom line I love this tweak. If you try it just give it some time.
Hi Theo,Thankx you for reporting these results.
I hope other inmates will start too experiment too with ferrite beads too as I find the results in my setup truly amazing. And best of all: ferrite beads are relatively easy too apply. Especially applying them on the P4 power line is a no-brainer.
Clamping the P24 I find more complicated as I still haven’t made up my mind op on which ‘clamping strategy’ is most simple and/or most effective.
When applying ferrites on individual wire pairs on the P24 special attention is needed is too make sure the ferrite “sees” equal and opposite DC currents so that there will be zero net magnetic flux density inside the ferrite bead. This way avoiding the ferrite too be less effective or even without any effect (saturated) through DC effects.
I think the paper from:
Tim Williams, Elmac Services, ‘Using ferrites for interference suppression’
http://www.elmac.co.uk/pdfs/ferrite.pdf
and/or the paper from
manufacterer Steward on ‘The Use Of Ferrites In EMI Suppression’
http://www.steward.com/pdfs/emi/technical/Use%20of%20Ferrites%20in%20EMI.pdf
are both very clear on these pitfalls.In what way or in what arrangement did you use the ferrite beads on the P24?
I would very much like too hear from other inmates on how they solved ‘clamping the P24’ problem.Roughly I see three methods:
1. Brut force
Clamping 6 to 8 Ferrite beads (hole diameter 12 mm) in a row on the P24.
Downside: some individual wires deep inside the P24 bundle of wires, will never be in close contact with the ferrite. Although twisting the P24 bundle of wires helps some what to bring individual wire too the surface of the wire bundle.2. clamping individual wires pairs or groups of wires on the P24.
Downside: how to prevent mismatching the wires that will result in a non-zero sum of magnetic flux density which will make the ferrite less effective or may be even saturated.3. Using a flat bead ferrite for ribbon cables with use of a P24 extension or so.
See: http://www2.conrad.nl/goto.php?artikel=501962
All individual wires of a P24 (extension) cable can be flattened out side by side and than put through a a flat bead ferrite for ribbon cables.
This way all individual P24 wires will be in close contact with the ferrite. And also the brut force method could be applied by using 2 or more flat bead ferrites for ribbon cable in a row on too the P24.
Downside: May be: bulky. But clamping the P24 is a bulky mess anyhow. No matter what method is going too be used. A lot off ferrite is needed.
All ideas welcome.
Mark(suffering from a bad case of ‘Ferritus Clampingditus’)
Edits: 06/11/11
All I can say is that I'm looking for optimum clamping too. Using my random strategy has yielded good results so I'll stay here a while and then try moving them around.
Hi Theo,
I had planned too do some current measurements, So here are the results from my GB G41M ES2L mobo.
Yesterday I cut a P24 extension cable in half, tinned the naked wire ends and screwed all the 24 wires back together with help off little screw-on terminal blocks. This way I can insert my multi meter in each wire individually and measure current in that specific P24 wire. Pff the whole operation toke almost 4 hours. Too put the multi meter on a next wire, the computer has too be shut down. Once the multi meter is moved too the next wire, than the computer can be started up again. Ect. So it toke 24 shut down/start ups.
Especially since the first round of measurements where puzzling to me. So I decided too do a second set of current measurements.
Which again needed 24 shut downs and startups. :-(
But the current measurements stayed the same and somewhat puzzling.
The current is not evenly distributed amongst the wires of one voltage group.
Hmmm I find this somewhat strange.
Or could it be that I created ‘artificial facts‘ due too a faulty measurement setup or faulty measurement proceeding?
Anyhow, since I twice did fry a Gigabite G31 MoBo I now use a Gibagyte G41M-ESL2L
My last P24 measurements originate from the G31M mobo.
On that MoBo the 5 volt rails had the most current running.
But with this G41M MoBo the most current runs through the 3,3 V group!
So one just can not assume that every MoBo will have most current on the 5 volt group.
With this MoBo both the 3,3 V group and the 5 V group drawn much current.
So which voltage is ‘the power house’ in a cMP setup, depends on the MoBo used..
P24
pin
01 3,3V 0,23A
02 3,3V 0,19A
12 3,3V 0,18A
13 3,3V 0,17A
0,77A total
04 5 V 0,12A
06 5 V 0,12A
21 5 V 0,15A
22 5 V 0,11A
23 5 V 0,15A
0,65A total
10 12 V 0,02A
11 12 V 0,02A
The black GND wires have current almost equally distributed amongst them.
Information about PSU setup for this P24 current measurement session:
Linear PSU -> P4
Linear PSU -> pico PW-200-M -> SSD + USB bracket
Aerthwatts ATX -> extension cable -> P24
The measurements where done with a fully Optimized cMP setup according too cicsmemoryplayer website. So with LAN disabled in BIOS and Device manager. Additionally I also disable serial ATA channel 1 (in bios and device manager). And I also disable PCIe root ports in the device manager.
Although these current measurements give information on voltage and currents, thus making possible better decisions on which wires too group when clamping ferrites, I think all P24 wires need clamping because EMI noise is likely too travel around on all P24 wires.
Mark
Well I am surprised that there is such a big difference between the 41 and 31 mobo's. I guess if you move many of your ferrites onto the 3.3v lines and get better sonics that would somewhat corroborate. I saw you initial measurement on the 31 mobo (which I have) but I did not see that current measurement distributed per each pin. Do you have that? I put one more ferrite on (current count now 7) and am not sure I can fit any more so unless I re-distribute I'm done.
Edits: 06/14/11
Hi Theo,
Back than for the G31 mobo I did it like this. With wires combined per voltage group.
Van P24 current measurements
Now for the G41M MoBo I did it like this:
Van P24 current measurements
So only for this G41M MoBo I have the currents per individual wire.
As I don’t dismiss Bibo01 remarks about ferrite that may loss their effective after a few weeks, how are you sonics after a few day’s now ? Do you think the ferrites in your setup are still effective?
I did a lot of surching and reading on the net, too find out if the effect of ferrites will wear out after some time. But the only thing I came across is, that it is important too prevent saturation as much as possible when (too much) ‘one way’ DC is applied on them. I also came across that ferrites are widely used on PCB boards in all kind of digital electronics too suppress HF noise. The web is literally littered with articles on this subsect. But I didn’t come across one article where there was a warning about wear out of ferrites in applications after a period of time. So lets cross our fingers.
Coming week I will start moving around the ferrite clamps. Since ferrites are very cheap is fun too mess around with them and I again ordered some 8 ferrite clamps with a hole diameter of 12 mm. And also bunch of round little ferrite bars with a diameter of 8 mm. I want to experiment with 3 or 4 winds around these little ferrite bars and than clamp this little coil into the ferrite clamp with 1,2 diameter.
Right now the individual P24 wires still have a lot space/air around them while being inside the ferrite clamp. There should be ferrite all around them. Not air all around them. So may be wrapping them around these little ferrite bars and than clamping the whole inside a ferrite might give better results. This way their will be hardly any air left inside the ferrite clamp and also the wire will be in very close contact with ferrite inside the ferrite clamp. But this I just me messing around with ferrite’s, I don’t dare to predict if it will be more effective. But I let you know in a few days.
Mark
I have not lost the sq improvement...its still there. In fact I notice my system appears to be less sensitive to daily variations in noise on the powerline (unless its been very good last couple of days which is unlikely in my ac feed). So I will continue to monitor also.
Thank you for your response.
...and it keeps getting better. Highs get less bright but more detailed. Depth increases and space between instrument especially on densely recorded pieces become more textured. I'm really loving it.
...and it keeps getting better. Highs get less bright but more detailed. Depth increases and space between instrument especially on densely recorded pieces become more textured. I'm really loving it.
Hi Theo,
Nice improvements huh ?
I also like it very much.
Hopefully there wil be no possible ‘deleterious effect’ as BiBo01 pointed at.
What is your ‘clamping strategy’ too keep DC & Low Frequency AC Bias Effects lowest possible?
Do you just clamp all ferrite clamps in a row (one after the other) on the P24?
Or
do you clamp individual combinations of + and – wires?
Also: if you use Ferrite clamps with large hole diameters (8 – 12 mm) , how do push the 2 mm + and – wires ontoo the ferrite inside the bead? The wires need too be in immidate and close contact with ferrite.
Mark
Don't know what you mean about low frequency bias perhaps you can elaborate a bit more. I'm just putting more clamps on as many groups of wires as possible. I try to keep black and red wires (at least 2 or more) in each ferrite.I try to space the ferrites but they are close. I put the clamps where I can easily access p24 wires. But it seems to work. I get more of an impact when the clamp is tight on the wires.
Hi Theo,See page 109 and 110 and figures: 14, 15, 16 and 17.
In particular: “the ferrite “sees” equal and opposite DC currents and thus zero net magnetic flux density. The ferrite will be able to provide maximum series impedance for high frequency common mode currents and remain unaffected by the DC operation of the encircled conductors”
So when not bundlling all 24 wires into one ferrite, one has too make a combination of wires that (at best) also will result in a ‘zero net magnetic flux density’.
So I’m curious what comibination of wires you bundle too achieve a ‘zero net magnetic flux density’.
Or, 2nd best (when it is not possible to make any combination of wires which results in zero-DC magnetic flux) what combination of wires do you bundle into one ferrite bead to achieve the lowest possible non-zero DC?
I’m especially interested in how to bundle the bleu -12 volt wire, the grey PWR-OK wire, the green PS-On/Of wire and the purple STD-BY wire. As I also expect HF-noise too spread through these wires, so I want too clamp these wires too.
Mark
Edits: 06/10/11 06/10/11
I do try my best to keep a + and - wire in a ferrite. am I combining the right ones? I'm not sure. Unless there is a way to know I just guess.
"More micro details, background is ‘blacker than black’, broad and deep soundstage, highs are very detailed but at the same time smooth and ‘creamy’"
Well said, hfavandepas, I couldn't agree more. I didn't responded sooner because: I didn't have the opportunity to listen to my system carefully until now; and I am still using a netbook as my primary source (having such a good time with it that there is no hurry on my part to upgrade to the 'real thing') and thought that my system is not typical enough.
Anyway, I now have 4 ferrite chokes in my system, 2 on the power cable from the linear power supply to the netbook, and 2 on the power line feeding the switching PS of the hard drive which is connecting to the netbook through USB. Apart from the improvements as stated by you, I also notice that recording that I found sounding thin (Bonnie Raitt's 'Give It Up') previously now really blossom into full body sonic. All recordings now have very good to fantastic sound stage, not just the well-recorded ones.
Good listening.
This is spooky weird because 5 minutes before your post I stripped the nylon sheathing off my p24 bundle and put 3 massive ferrites around at least 2 black and 2 red wires (plus other wiress) each and letting my system warm up. I'll let you know sq results in a while.
In the us they say homerun!! or touchdown!!! I guess you guys in Europe say goaaaaaaaaaaallllll!! Nice positive impact on sq.
You wrote in this post:http://www.AudioAsylum.com/forums/pcaudio/messages/9/90804.html
Posted by theob
RE: Still rocking. And even better with caps in place !
------------------------------
If others don't try it does not bother me....its their loss. Wow 15
ferrites. I only have 7 I think. I'll have to try more.
------------------------------Hi Theo,
Here’s a picture of the ‘charcoal pile’ of ferrites in my cMP setup.
Don’t know if you can count them all (click on picture too enlarge)
but there 15 ferrites.
I devided the wires into 3 groups. 3.3V + 5V + rest,
Van on filtering, demping, ect
- First on the P24 extension cable you see 2 (or 3) tight fitting ferrites in the beginning on the 3.3V + 5V + rest (the rest has 3 on)- More over too the middle of the P24 extension cable.
I tried too split the wires into more parallel wires trying this too reduce current through each ferrite
This is the second group of ferrites I bought.
Those square ferrites have bigger hole diameter of 12 mm
In these ferrites I put a little bar of ferrite diameter 8 mm
(same little ferrite bars you can see more too the left of the picture)
With the wires wrapped around this little ferrite bar, this little coil tightly fits into the clamp
This way pushing the wires tightly onto the outside of the ferrite clamp.
3 to 4 centimeter wire length is tightly push against the ferrite clamp.- Finaly at the end of the P24 I managed to sqeeuze in some of the same clamps as in the front.
This makes a total of 15.
As I bought enought ferrites, I’m also experimenting with clamps on the power wires comming from the Pico 200 that feeds the SSD and the USB bracket.
On the P4 are 2 ferrite clamps with hole diameter of 12mm with again 2 little ferrite bars inside it where the wire is wrapped arround a few times too press it fermly against the ferrite on the inside of the clamp.
I also added some smoothing caps + little by-pass caps.
I think those caps should be best added on both sides of the ferrite bunk.
But this still has too come, because I ran out of little oscon caps.
I expect them too arrive soon together with flat ferrites for ribbon cables.
I hope too get rit of 'the charcoal pile' of ferrites with these flat ferrites for ribbon cables.
Lintkabel met ferrrietkern RFP1-26-28-A5 (Conrad Electronic)
I want too stack them in a pile and than weave the extension cable from one into the other.
So the flat P24 extension cable will make an S=shaped route trough this stack of ferrites for ribbon.
It will look much better and I think it is also much easier too apply.When they arrive I will post a picture of the stack with the P24 extension cable running through that pile of ferrite for ribbon cable.
Mark
Edits: 06/23/11
Hi TheoI use a p24 extension cable.
That makes paring and clamping ferrites on very easy.
See photo.Since the guys who build there own fully linear cMP PSU’s, bundle all black wires together, I assume that each of the 8 black 0 volt wires carries 1/8 of the current back.
So through 'rule of thumb' I pair one black wire with one red 5 volt.
But I should measure the current in every p24 line.
Than I know it exactlyMark
Edits: 06/02/11
A few years ago I put in home runs to my audio equipment to "isolate" them from the rest of the AC appliances in the house. Being such, I wonder if placing Ferrite Beads on appliance power cords would have an noticeable impact in such a configuration.Also, I am using a PICO PS which does not have a P24 line, but it does have a P4 line. I am experimenting with the P4 lines, HD power lines, SC power lines and the 12V/ground lines between the PS and PICO, but am not noticing a big difference. The switching PS brick already has a choke on its cord and all of gear is plugged into a filtered balanced power unit.
I will try braiding/twisting the PC power lines next and a linear PS.
Maybe the Ferrite Beads are more noticeable if other precautions are not already in place ???
Thanks,
TimP.S.
Just twisted the power cables. It makes for a nice cleanup and easier routing. Now for a listen with the twists and extra chokes.
Edits: 06/01/11
Hi Emial Tim,
These are my experiences after one day of clamping ferrites. It will be al long copy text and I write this also for others too because I am not educated in electrics and (digital) electronics. So it’s likely that i’m not aware of ‘white spots’ in my knowledge on this. (a white spot is an area of knowlegde that I don’t have, but also I don’t know that there is something I don’t know. If I knew I don’t know, than it’s a black spot. And I can start looking for the knowledge)
So too anyone who reads this, feel free too comment, too correct, and too improve.
So in the text below, I will give some background on what I did and why I did it. So anyone can correct or comment on my approach and can correct false assumptions and lack of knowlegde and give tips for other better approaches.
* Why wanted to try ferrite camp on beads
I wanted too experiment with filtering HF noise on the power supply lines too the mobo. Why?
Using a linear PSU too power the MoBo has a significant positive effect on sound quality. It is said that this is because less noise and ripple.
Putting decoupling caps (smoothing caps) on the P4 power lines has a positive effect on SQ because these caps probably smooth the ripple and may also shunt some HF noise. But using large capacitance too create a current reservoir too smooth ripple, large capacitance will not shunt HF frequencies. Putting litlle by-pass caps on the bigger caps helps somewhat. But still is not very effect on the very high frequency’s I want to filter.
I thought about filtering with 2 nd order L/C filters or R/C filters. But calculations too see if the these 2nd order filters will not start too ring, are much, much too difficult for me.
A more simple approach would be a combination of ferrites and capacitance. As suggested in the article from ferrite manufacturer Steward. Also google on” The Use Of Ferrites In EMI Suppression’ and one will find many more articles on this.
Ferrites provide a high resistance too HF frequency’s with much less chanche on ringing . Ferrite’s provide a high resistance for frequencies in the range from 50 mHz too 500 mHz. For exact data see the data sheet of the specific clamp of the ferrite bead that is chosen.
Things too keep in mind when using Ferrite’s
When reading article on The Use Of Ferrites In EMI Suppression it is pointed out that feeding DC current through a ferrite, will degrade the effect that a ferrite bead has on HF frequency’s. When too much DC current flows through ferrite, it becomes saturated and the filtering effect on HF frequency’s is lost or much less. See articles that discuss the effects of ‘DC & Low Frequency AC Bias Effects And Saturation’. Also inmate Bibo01 was probably pointing at this.
So here’s what I tried so far.
(with some background info, as too ‘why’and ‘how’)
* Starting with the electrical 230 source in my house.
In The Netherlands every home gets 3 times 230 Volt AC delivered. These three 230 AC voltages are delivered with a fase-shift of 120 degree’s. One can recognize these three fase groups, through the grouping of the spurs in the meterboard. In the meterboard one can see that the spurs are arranged in three groups of spurs. Every group of spurs lurks from one of those three 230 AC voltages.
When installing a dedicated spur, it’s wise too take the dedicated spur from the most clean 230 AC voltage fase. In my case I toke it from the 230 AC voltage fase that only feeds the laundry dryer and the washing machine. Nothing else lurks of that fase. So it’s the most clean 230 AC volt fase too put the dedicated audio spur on. Provided that the washing machine and laundry dryer are not running this is the most clean fase in my house. How much HF pollution already is delivered at my doorstep through the electrical net, I can only guess, But putting 2 big ferrite beads on this dedicated 230 AC voltage line coming from the dedicated spur, makes no audible difference at all.
* 230 connections too the used gear.
All cableling of the dedicated audio spur and also all power cords are shielded. The shields are only grounded at one end of the cable too a real earth.
Only the active Klein & Hummel speakers and my Lavry Black DAC are on this dedicated audio spur. The Lavry DAC has Epcos line filter in the power cord. This way I try too prevent the Lavry spoiling the dedicated audio spur. The lavry has a switching PSU inside, so one never knows. Putting the lavry on another spur makes makes no sound quality difference. So probably the Lavry is not pollution so much back inside the dedicated audio spur.
* I use two linear PSU’s and 2 pico’s
They are arranged in 2 groups. A dirty group and a clean group. Just a Cics suggests doing with 2 ATX PSU’s. I use that same concept (dirty and clean), but using 2 pico’s
- clean section: linear PSU -> Pico 160 XT on the P24
- dirty section: linear PSU -> Pico 200 which powers the SSD and USB
(the P4 PSU line is taken directly from the linear PSU and bypasses the Pico).
Both linear PSU’s are on the same 230 AC outlet and on the same 230 AC spur with a real earth. So the two linear supplies both can see each other through the 230 Volt AC connection and also through the safety earth connection.
I don’t know if the 2 linear PSU’s also can see each other trough the DC side through the mobo somehow.
Putting the 2 linear PSU’s on 2 different spurs with real earth connections, has no positive effect on sound quality.
Putting the 2 linear PSU’s on a clean kitchen spur (with only the dishwasher on it) makes no difference in SQ.
* other sphericals connected with might inject HF noise.
- NAS
I use a NAS with might inject noise onto the MoBo.
Connecting the LAN cable makes no difference in sound quality.
This might be prevented, because LAN sockets are transformer decoupled by design. May be this feature prevents HF noise. But being AC, the HF noise should be able too get trough this transformer.
So I’m a little puzzled here.
Too my utmost surprise: connecting my Sony TV too the VGA port, also makes no difference in sound quality. I had expected the TV too inject much HF noise into the MoBo.
However the TV is earthed trough a real earth connection via the coax cable. The coax cable has a real earth connection in the meterboard when entering the house.
* HIGH QUALITY optical out to Lavry DAC made a real improvement
As suggested by Cics using an optical connection which provides galvanic isolation between DAC and MoBo yields a significant SQ improvement. But only when high quality toslink cables are used.
Using the standard toslink optical cables that came with my RME sound cards makes no difference at all. Standard quality toslink cable sound the same as balanced AES/EBU from my Lynx AES16 PCI card.
Surprisingly by far the best is: optical out by means of a HIGH QUALITY optical toslink.
Just as Cics recommends in his cMP recipe.
* Why I tried ferrites in this setup.
So I still had the nagging feeling that there still must be al lot of HF noise around or a ground loop somehow. Otherwise: why would using a high quality toslink connecting make such a significant SQ improvement. Right ?
This is why I wanted too see if blocking HF noise traveling around, would yield any sound quality improvement.
So I just started (more or less without any rational strategy) placing ferrites on power cords.
* Ferrite clamp on P4
To my surprise placing a large ferrite clamp on the P4 psu line coming from a linear PSU (!!), made a significant SQ improvement.
More improvement than placing smoothing caps on the P4. So definitely worth taking the trouble.
So is it a lousy linear PSU? I don’t think so as it already had made a sound quality improvement when not using the ATX P4.
Placing ferrites just makes a second significant SQstep. In my setup: equal too the one not feeding the P4 from a Aerth watts ATX switching PSU.
* many ferrite clamps on individual P24 voltage lines.
Just one big ferrite clamp on the P24 has hardly any effect on SQ.
But clamping many each on individual + 3.3, +5, + 12 volt wires (each combined with 1 black 0 Volt line) also makes a nice SQ improvement.
The P24 extension cable has now 9 ferrite clamps on it. 5 clamps on each individual red 5 volt DC lines, 3 on each orange 3,3 line and 1 on the combined yellow +12volt lines.
* DC bias.
I probably make a lot DC bias faults by clamping ferrites with out knowing the currents through each wire. so I want to start measuring the current in all lines of the P24.
Knowing all currents in each wire from the P24 extension cable, I might be able too make better +/- combinations which cause less DC bias.
* Is there really much more HF noise in my setup than others?
So I really don’t know if my setup has lots of HF noise traveling around, compared too other cMP setups. So if anybody sees any basic flaws in my setup, please let me know what you think.
As I can’t think of any basic flaws which would create a lot of HF noise in my cMP setup or setup flaws that create unwanted ground loops.
* optimizing the use of Ferrites
Until now I just clamped around with no real strategy. If anybody has tips on where and when ferrites are more effective, let me know. Any suggestions welcome.
* adding caps on both side?
What about placing extra caps on both side of the ferrites, to shunt HF frequency’s that see the high resistance of the ferrite ahead and thus will prefer traveling through the caps?
I found it encouraging that TheoB also found the same SQ improvements in his setup.
Especially because I know his Martin Logans are extremely revealing but neutral, electrostatic speakers which will let Theo hear every minute change in ambiance, micro details, etc.
So everybody start clamping!
Ferrites only cost 1 to 3 euro each.
Just try them and report back.
Mark
Mark & Theob,Thanks for the topic, articles/posts, and experiences using ferrites. Very helpful.
I had done an experiment this week that I'd hoped to post about this weekend... And this is a good prod for me to do that!
One thing I did a couple of months ago was implement an SSD for my Op System & my musical favorites (Thanks Mark, Rick, and others who pioneered this!). The rest of my library still resides on an HDD. When I did that, I grafted a 2nd SATA power connector onto the cable coming from the linear regulator on my 'dirty' supply. But I thought that there might be some additional benefit available by adding a separate regulator for each drive... And mounting each close to the drive right at the SATA power connector.
Last weekend, I built these modules/power connectors up using LT3080's as regulator chips & implemented them. They provided a useful SQ increase... Mostly audible to me as a slight lowering of the noise floor and increase in the noticable details. I had not expected it to be a huge change and it was not... Useful, well worth the cost in parts and time, but not something that should be on anyone's top-ten mods list.
But I've also been pondering the use of ferrite chokes on the power side of a computer music setup. This all started after I read Inmate Maxamillion's post (http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=tweaks&m=174374) about the impact of using these chokes on the power cords of all the other pieces of equipment in your home that generate electrical noise... Mostly where there are motors, SMPS's, and/or microprocessors in computers and their power supplies, cell phone chargers, appliances, etc. I had a few chokes I'd gotten back in the late '80s & the 90's that I'd tried on audio equipment power cords & interconnects with at best mixed results... Generally everywhere I tried them back then, they didn't do much if any net good.
But putting them on all of the power cords of the items in my house that I listed above made a very significant difference in my system... Again, lowering the perceived noise. This made the highs much more defined, refined, and 'analog-like'. A nice un-expected result was a lowering of the 'mud' in the bass regions and increase in definition there too. I've yet to try the ones recommended in that thread from DigiKey... Need to get an order into them and see if I hear the same improvements Maxamillion observed.
But in a complex cMP setup (like mine with 11 different linear supplies), there are a number of 'dirty' supplies that might benefit from chokes. This is different than what I tried back in the '80s/'90s because most of my equipment then didn't have separate supplies for the 'dirty' vs the 'clean'... And the 'dirty' supplies then were just not as 'dirty' (think turntable motor or early CDP microprocessor control system versus a full PC for a cMP).
So I tried them on the raw DC power feeds to the HDD/SSD regulators/connectors and got a nice SQ pop there, subjectively larger in magnitude than originally installing the regulator/connectors (although I strongly suspect that without the local regulators separate for each drive, the difference would have been much smaller). Adding one to the 12v DC feed to the Zalman screen increased the effect.
I suspect the mechanism here is that the ferrites are reducing the noise feed back both into the power line and into other equipment (from HDD to SSD, from Zalman screen to the USB power as they share the same raw DC supply).
After that experience, I was thinking along the same lines as what you tried, Theob and you suggested Mark... Putting ferrite chokes on both the DC feeds to the rest of the 'dirty' components (USB power & P4) and also on each of these supplies' AC lines. I'm also planning to try them on the 3.3v, 5v, and 12v lines from my ATX linear supply to the motherboard and also my Juli@ & DAC supplies. All of these are linear supplies in my system and I'm not sure what the impact (if any) will be... But it's an easy & cheap experiment. I suspect the impact will vary based on where noise is being generated & what paths it can take. For example, I don't expect the same result that Theob had putting one on my P4 connection since I have a fairly-quiet linear supply powering it. But it still might be useful... Or not.
Another comment on the use of chokes in power supplies that I found interesting was here http://hifiduino.wordpress.com/2011/05/13/update-to-the-musiland-power-mod/#more-1507.
So again, thanks Mark for starting this thread & posting links to a lot of good reference material... And Theob for contributing the first listening comments and data points.
I do think there's a lot more that we can do regarding noise elimination in our systems. In other posts, Inmate Elizabeth discusses using conductive foam to absorb RFI noise in her equipment. And then there's the 'Mask of Silence' & 'Stealth Mat' being used by Arcam to great reviews in their recent equipment. Search the web for references to these terms & you'll find info that suggests the 'Mask of Silence' is ferrite sheet applied to noisy IC chips and that the 'Stealth Mat' is something similar to (or maybe identical to) ERS cloth. All of these are readily available, the conductive foam and ferrite sheet from suppliers like Digikey & Mouser (but VERY expensive) and the ERS cloth from specialty audio component suppliers like Michael Percy & the Parts Connexion. I am sure there are some great applications of all three of these materials in our cMP machines.
Then there's grounding. I think I've done a pretty good job grounding my linear ATX/P4 supply, with all grounds coming back seperately to the motherboard ground. But I know there are improvements I can make to my 'dirty' supplies where my USB power is actually grounding through the power supply connection for the Zalman screen (as they share the same raw DC supply... Thanks to Rick McI for pointing this out!). A few comments on grounding & power supplies by Paul Hynes towards the end of this thread are worth noting & pondering :http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=89251.0.
And finally, here's another use for ferrites chokes that I haven't tried yet, but looks to be worth checking out, is on the Bud Purvine-inspired ground-thingies... Either the commercial versions or the homebuilt variants. Inmate Elizabeth posted about that in these two posts (among others):
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=tweaks&m=177504
And
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=mug&m=173649
Edit... Theob, I went back & re-read all of these two threads & see that you were already in the thick of them. Have you tried the ferrite-varation ground-thingees yet?
Greg in Mississippi
P.S. Another ground-thingie-related tweak is the use of capacitors across them as discussed by Inmate Unclestu here: http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=tweaks&m=177294.
P.P.S. My next things to try are trying the high-current Belleson regulators in my linear ATX/P4 supply (hopefully this weekend... And again, thanks to Rick McI for pointing these out) and implementing a couple of different DACs to try... the Buffalo II DAC that's been sitting here for over a year & a new tiny DAC card using the ES9022 from DIYAudio poster EUVL (see here http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/151846-anybody-using-new-ess-vout-dac-es9022-3.html).
The EUVL DAC may be especially promising for mounting on a modified Juli@ with an I2S connection... It is easy to implement as it only needs 9v & 6v power (easily supplied by batteries if that's your power of choice), it has it's own reclocking circuit (although EUVL's latest findings are that there are better ways to implement the clocking than how he did it here... Which is very similar to what Twisted Pear does in their ESS-based DACs), and it is very small & self-contained... And best yet, not terribly expensive.
Everything matters!
Edits: 05/28/11
Hi Greg,
Thank you for your informatieve response.
I have no experience with placing ferrite beads on power lines and interconnects in analogue audio systems. Only after reading ‘Digital Hardware Design’ by Ivor Catt, David Walton, Malcolm Davidson, (thanks to a tip from inmate Ryelands) I got interested in the effect of (ground) noise in my cMP setup and lowering/filtering it.
see http://www.ivorcatt.org/digital-hardware-design.htm
But most important of all I learned that effects on sound quality and avoiding & reducing noise in analogue audio have hardly any resemblance with those in digital (audio) systems.
Just a wild guess, but my feeling tells me that Inmate Maxamillioy’s ground tweaks (and others) are toying around with the more subtle symptoms of ‘the pin1 problem’, where the circuit boards common trace in someway is connected too the chassis, (cables-)shields, power safety ground, ect. and thus therefore (unwanted) currents are allowed to flow in the signal reference ground. In analogue systems this can lead too a broad variety of all kinds of symptoms (not only too the well know classic hum).
In my view this in the only resemblance analogue audio systems and digital systems both have in common: they both need a clean and stable 0 volt. The cleaner and the more stable O volt: the better.
With this in mind I agree proper grounding is very, very important. But I also find most the most complicated. Especially in digital systems.
From reading the article ‘Example of Noise Suppression in DVD Players’
http://www.murata.com/products/emc/case/household/pdf/d_4.pdf
I now realize what a noisy mess it must be on a PC MoBo.
I want too concentrate on conducted noise in my cMP setup. I think that radiated noise is of great importants in an analogue audio setup, but of lesser importants in my cMP setup.
I use 2 Pico’s. One for ‘clean’ components and one for ‘dirty’ components. I use Pico’s because I think Pico’s are less noisy than standard ATX because they only have too switch from 12V -> 5 and 3.3 volt, while an standard ATX had too switch from 230 -> 12,5 and 3.3 volts. But I don’t know if that is really true.
Because Pico’s are still switchers I want too try is ferrite beads used after the pico (place on an P24 extension cable) have impact on sound quality.
I also want to try the effect on the power lines feeding feeding the Pico’s.
I’ll report back when the ferrite beads have arrived.
Mark
Hey Guys,
FOr some reason I have it in my head that ferrites arent the best things.
Has anyone thought about twists or braids for this? Ie, making connections with twisted pairs or braids to P24 conections?
There was a report of an improvement in sound by an inmate (i forget who) where thicker wire was used for these connections. The improvement in sound was claimed to come from the thicker wire but I found it interesting that twisted pairs were used too. IMHO the twisted pairs were more to blame than the thicker wire.
Just my 2 cents but it would be nice to see an experiment that compared a simple twist with a ferrite. I dont mind doing this myself, but my system is down and probably will be for a long while, so testing is not much of an option for me.
No one here remembers the bending of our minds
Hi Greg,
I think that was me.
I did that twisting because than I used 2 solid core wires.
Twisted together they made one compact power supple cable.
I used that braided solid core wire between my linear PSU and the Pico.
At this moment I again use a twisted pair between my lineair PSU and the Pico. However now I use 2 wires of 2 mm stranded copper wire twisted together.
Why do you think a twisted pair will work better against conducted noise dan clamp on ferrite breads?
As far as I think I understand the purpose of twisting a pair of wires in a cable: it is to minimize the effects radiated noise onto that cable. (electromagnetic induction in that cable caused by electromagnetic fields).
A straight wire will work as an antenna. In a twisted pair the wires will also works as antennas, but in a twisted pair each wire loop will (more or less) cancel the signal picked up by the opposite wire in the next loop and vica versa. (If I'm correct, this is the theory behind the use of a twisted pair)
So I think a twisted pair will do a better job on radiated noise.
But too my knowledge a twisted wire pair has no advantage over a straight wire pair when it is about conducted noise.
May be other inmates can shed some light into this matter.
Mark
Ok Mark here is just a preliminary reaction/comment on this suggested tweak. I confess at being a high frequency freak in that I really enjoy listening to that portion of the spectrum in well recorded music. Anyway I initially misread the paper in that I put a ferrite bead over just the + cables of P4....didn't like it. It just sounded wrong. So I gave up. Then I re-read the article because its interesting and I discovered my hook up mistake. So hooked it up over the + and - portions of P4 correctly and there was a nice difference. BTW I hooked it around p4 just before the cap bank. On well recorded stuff (Morton Gould playing Billy the Kid, Ballet Rodeo and Grand Canyon Suite) the ferrite tweak added much depth and a bit of width to the soundstage and a bit more dynamics with a slight increase in air around instruments. On poorly recorded stuff (like the Ballet Rodeo above) it was just ok but on Grand Canyon Suite it was magnificient. So I need to run to Radio Shack to get more of these things for P24.
Nice tweak...you are becoming THE source of good tweaks for Cmp^2 on Audio Asylum! Well done.
Hi Theo,
I searched the house and found the missing ferrite bead.
I’m happy too report back too you that I got the same sonic improvement as you described!
I clamped it around the P4 power supply line coming from a (cheap: 60 euro’s) linear power supply.
And although coming from a linear PSU, the sonic improvement is exactly as you described it !
I can’t wait the 16 clamp on ferrite beads (with various wire diameters ) too arrive, too start various experiments.
Did you experiment already with 1 or more windings?
(I can’t do this yet with the lost ferrite bead I found back, because the centre hole of that bead is too narrow)
Mark
I tried a rather large ferrite core around the entire bundle of p24 and hardly noticed a difference. I did put other cores around power cords of my crossover/dac and juli@ 3.3 volt feeds and got a small bit of a sq change. Biggest change is still the p4 core. Don't understand why.
Edits: 05/31/11
Went to an Electrical Parts store (RS Electronics in the US) and got some real huge ferite cores put 2 of them around p24 and another around p4 and that is more like it. Sounds less bright but yet more detailed and more space around all instruments.
Very smooth.
Hi Theo
I can’t wait until mine will be delivered.
According the track & trace service they will be delivered tomorrow
So I can start clamping.
Good too hear that you now have obtained better results on the P24.
The effect of clamping a ferrite bead on the linear (!) 12 V DC P4 line in my setup was rather big.
It was a real significant improvement.
I could hear the improvement immediately.
No long listening sessions needed for that.
As you also already wrote: I have no explanation either for the significant SQ improvement.
I know that ferrite beads ‘filter’(present high resistance for) high frequency’s.
And I also expected that lowering HF noise levels would increase SQ
But what is exactly happening here, I don’t know.
Is the ferrite bead blocking HF noise coming from the MoBo onto the P4 line?
Or vice versa? Is my linear psu producing HF noise which is blocked by the ferrite?
What is exactly happing here that is causing the SQ improvement?
Anyway, it works very well !!
Untill now at least.
The total DC current in the P24 is high. Around 3.5 – 3.8 amps
Reading the ‘Steward’ article, that is much current to apply ferrites on.
Steward proudly presents in that article, that some of there ferrites can handle 4500 mili amps (4.5 amps) and still keep functioning without saturation or so.
So I will follow Bibo’s advice and remove them after 3 weeks, too check if the ferrites are still effective.
Can you provide a link or name or partnumber or model of which type of the ferrite beads that you are using?
Mark
No part number. The ferrite is about an inch long and a half inch square at the end (this includes the white clamp). It all but fits the p24 bundle so I taped it it to be secure. Place from which I bought it only offers this one brand/style so I'll go back and buy the rest and find out their source.
Hope that helps.
Its 28A2029-0A0 2 pc ferrite bead w/nylon case mfg by Stewart.
Please try to remove the ferrite bead after a couple of weeks.
And see if you get the same improvement again.
Ferrites lose their effect when DC goes through them.
Actually, Charles Hansen (of Ayre Acoustics) claims that an extended period of DC creates a deleterious effect, with demagnetization needed.
Hi Bibo01,
It just sprang to mind that Charles Hansen might be pointing at saturation of the ferrite by a large DC magnetizing force. As described on page 109 and 110 in the article from ferrite manufacturer ‘Steward’ (see link below)
According the article this can be prevented by always feeding only a pair (or group) of wires through the same ferrite bread, that carry equal and opposite direct currents. This too ensure that there are always equal but opposite DC currents, which will result in a zero net magnetic flux density, this way preventing saturation of the ferrite.
It is good that you brought this too attention.
The P24 supply cable on which I also want too try the ferrite breads, consists of eight black ground wires, five red 5 Volt wires, 4 orange 3,3 Volt wires and two yellow 12 Volt wires.
In a cMP setup these wires carry approximately:
- 3,5 amp on the five 5 volt red wires,
- 0,3 amp on the four orange 3,3 Volt wires
- 0,12 amp on the two 12 Volt wires.
So careful cable-dressing amongst the black and the colored wires might be necessary, so too try too distribute all opposite fluxes evenly throughout the inside of that cable bundle.
May be it might also be a good thing, once that cable is dressed up, too twist that dressed up cable bundle a few times, so to make all wires in that cable bundle too come too the surface over some distance, in order too bring all wires close too the ferrite for some length inside the ferrite bread.
Anyway, thank you for pointing on the possible saturation of the ferrite bread. As I think this is what Charles Hansen probably ment.
Mark
Hi Bibo01,
Thank you for the tip.
Not because of that I think that ‘ferrites lose their effect when DC goes through them’ but because I find your tip very useful for testing the ‘placebo’ effect. Every tweaker is always at high risk to be fooled by the ‘placebo’ effect.
I never red or heard anything about such fenomenon untill now. Ofcourse that doesn’t mean that Charles Hansen claim is not correct. I try and see what comes up through the net after some google-ing. But if I can not find any serieues articles on that effect, than I will consider it not too be true.
Mark
The article mentions 5 items when selecting ferrite beads.
1) increasing the length of the portion of the conductor surrounded by the ferrite
2) increasing the cross sectional area of the ferrite (especially for power applications)
3) selecting a ferrite with an inner diameter most closely matching the outer diameter of the wire or wire bundle to be filtered
4) Ferrite core material for band width and frequency
5) Using 1 or 2 winds (but not more than 2).
I have some RatShack beads from another project, but the are way too big for #3's requirement and I have no idea what material they are made of.
What type and size of beads did you use for your P24 ???
Thanks,
Tim
Hi Tim,
I think for clamp on ferrite beads it is not that critical. Most clamp on ferrite beads that my favourite supplier Concrad has available range from 100 – 280 Ohms with a variety of hole diameters too facilitate for the type of wire you which too clamp it on. From 4.5 mm too 9.5 mm. See pictures in the links below.
I choose the ones with highest impedance 250 – 280 Ohm but ordered a bunch with a wide variety of hole diameters, because I want to be able too experiment with the numbers of winds.
RINGKERN RKCF-05-A5 (Conrad Electronic)
RINGKERN RRC12-07-15-M (Conrad Electronic)
Mark
Thank you. You might find these articles interesting too
Hi Theo,
Nice too hear it indeed has positive effects on SQ. Can’t wait to try it myself.
I got the idea through reading several articles on the use of ferrite beads. Which made me think: why not try ferrite beads too suppress conducted noise as it is suggested in many articles written by professionals
It also made me wonder why audiophiles make such a fuss about radiated noise but hardly pay any attention too conducted noise.
I only have only one ferrite bead lying around somewhere in da house. But I can’t find it anymore. So I didn’t had the chance too try it myself yet. I’ll will have too wait until the ordered ferrite breads arrive at my doorstep.
If you red the article and you found it interesting, than you might also like too read this article on noise suppression in DVD player. Very interesting and with much lessons for PC users too.
http://www.murata.com/products/emc/case/household/pdf/d_4.pdf
Also you might find this article interesting. It’s about IC’s performance degradation ( reduction in noise margin and increase in clock jitter) caused by ripple and noise on the power supply pins. And what can be done too improve the power supply too these IC’s through applying decoupling capacitors and ferrite beads.
http://www.analog.com/static/imported-files/tutorials/MT-101.pdf
Thankx for trying. I hope that other inmates start trying and experimenting too.
I’m specially interested in the combination of capacitors and ferrite beads.
I’ll get back too you when the ferrite beads have arrived and was able too experiment myself
Mark
Just to be clear my cmp system uses 2 computer switching power supplies(ala cics recommendation). So maybe I had more efi/emi than those with a linear supply for p4/p24. But after my last post I went thru a frenzy of listening to all my favorites. Most fun I have had in a while. Thanks again.
Edits: 05/28/11
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