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In Reply to: RE: Certainly would make the job simpler posted by rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com on September 03, 2010 at 12:14:56
Hi Rick,Thank you for your responce.
Indeed it would make the job more easy.
But the linear PSU model NMC 101 S from FG-ELECTRONIK also has my special interest because FG-ELECTRONIK not only stresses the absence of HF-pollution but they also stress the importance of (dynamic) load regulation.
I have no education or background in electronics, so I don’t know if it is really important, but I’m under the impression that a very good load regulation is also critical for sound quality coming from digital resource. I don’t see any in dept articles on the importance of (dynamic) load regulation for digital resources, but I do see more and more hints that point in this direction.
* Some producers of PSU’s for audiophile digital resources stress the importance of there PSU’s designs having a very low internal resistance.
* On this forum I think it was Bertel (if remember correctly) who stressed the importance of low resistance in order to maintain a stable voltage and steady current flow too the mobo.
* And also in this (sales talk!) article on upgrading the squeezebox PSU the importance of dynamic load regulation is mentioned.
http://www.squeeze-upgrade.com/philosophy-behind-sbooster-concept-pm-30.html#A%20linear%20regulated%20power%20supply%20improves%20the%20sound%20quality%20only%20for%20X%
(Although I seriously doubt if the series resistance of the DC power line is a real problem in that matter).I agree, it looks like if a de-tuned cMP PC is not a difficult load for a PSU. But on the other hand: some inmates on this forum do suggest that all the sound quality differences that can be heard on a cMP-setup through under-volting, under-clocking, using less RAM, an SSD, ect etc are because off less stress and demand on the PSU.
I’ll wait (ad hope) for some more response from other inmates, but since the PSU is only 139,- euro’s (so not super expensive) it might be worth to give it a try.
Mark
fully AOB optimized cMP2 PC -> Lynx AES16 -> XLR AES/EBU -> Lavry Black DA10 -> XLR Mogami Gold -> Klein & Hummel O300
Edits: 09/04/10Follow Ups:
for these supplies. It is not listed and when it comes to regulators it is a bit of smoke and mirrors. One can get great static measurements but when the load changes, like in a class AB amplifier, it becomes hard to be sure what it is. It is an indicator of good dynamic performance and the only way for us to find out is to use it and even then a shroud of mystery surrounds since - what are we to compare it to other than the ANTEC switcher which it damn well BETTER be better than since it cost about five times as much! But better is better - the question remains - how much better?
How much better than the ANTEC and then how much better than the PICO?
What one needs to know is: is a MB more like a class A amp or a class AB/B amplifier? Does an MB in cMP mode, more specifically, mimic a class A amp? My instinct is that it does but who knows what that is worth (my instinct that is)?
If the MB is more like a class A amp then the power supplies duties become much less difficult since it is not being asked to respond to changes - the definition of class A implies a steady state.
The supply does not seem to be easily available in the US - one would have to import one since none of the majors seem to represent the company, which is a shame since it does appear to be a step up from the average over the counter linear supply. I like the fact that it uses a discreet regulator instead of the ubiquitous three pin chip. One would like to assume this assure much better high frequency performance, important with computers playing music. I cannot imagine the average switcher having good performance in the high frequencies but there is another guess.
The trick with MB and CPU generated noise is how to sink it? The big advantage of the shunt regulator is that is does just that as part of its mode of operation. How any series regulator can reduce noise, other that its own noise, is a bit of a mystery. One would expect the power supply to be "quiet" - how it handles the garbage being returned to it via the ground is another thing. Maybe these clever Germans have found a way. If they have we will be very lucky music listeners.
If we could get a triple output including the 3.3 volts it would be very desirable. I have not found an over the counter supply with 5, 12 and 3.3 volts. We are the odd ones wanting to power am MB with a linear supply! I still like the idea of powering P4 with a separate supply. I continue to wonder if it makes any difference what powers the HDD and the USB. I just can't see how it makes any difference to use anything but the GRANITE supply.
This does seem to be an above average over the counter supply.
Are you considering ordering one?
Bye,
Rick McInnis
Hi Rick,
To me it’s totally unclear what a digital audio circuit exactly ‘needs’ from a PSU. I also don’t know what kind of digital audio circuits designs are more sensitive than others, too the quality of the power that is feeding them.
As also mentioned by other forum members: swithing PSU’s can be used with great success in digital audio equipment. For instance: my Lavry Black DA10 DAC uses a switching PSU inside, but it’s considered to be among the best sounding mid-level-quality DAC’s. May the digital circuit designs of the Lavry are not so sensitive for the power quality that is feeding them. Or: the switching PSU design is optimized for feeding digital audio circuits in the Lavry. I don’t know. But I guess: probably both.
I also don’t know / have (strong) reservations on ‘just’ copying what is ‘good practice’ in the analogue audio domain too the digital audio domain, assuming that the same practice will also be ‘good practice’ in the digital domain. Some times it is, because essentially all ‘digital’ electronics work analogue too. But also a whole set of different rules apply when transporting and processing block pulses at mega Hertz speeds instead of processing ‘old fashion’ sine waves. Inmate Ryelands sometimes stresses this by pointing at Ivor Catt’s (a.o.) book Digital Hardware Design. http://www.ivorcatt.org/digital-hardware-design.htm#contents. I think Ryelands stresses a very good point here.
So that’s what do I do. I just wonder around in ‘the land of PSU improvements’ for my cMP setup while trying to avoid getting lost. I read how other inmates try too improve the sound of there cMP setup through optimizing the power supply. When it works (other inmates report sound quality improvements too) I try to copy that improvement. But only when it’s not too complicated or difficult because my knowledge and skills are (very) limited in this matter.
So the common sense around here on PSU improvements is to apply a combination of:
- Using a PSU that can deliver currents that vastly vary while keeping Voltage rock steady.
- avoid noisy PSU’s by using quit (mostly linear) ones and or battery’s
- avoid or remove noisy components
- ‘sink’ or ‘filter’ noise generated by noisy components on MoBo, processor, sphericals, etc, ect (too a REAL earth or to GND ?)
- using separate power supply’s in ‘dirty’ and ‘clean’ sections.
But I suspect that the ‘dirt’ from the dirty sections somehow travels around and still manage to reach the clean sections through various ways.
As a hobbyist with limited knowledge and skills I concentrate on the use of (pre-build) linear PSU’s and the sinking / filtering of ‘noise’.
Since using linear PSU’s is relatively easy, most inmates concentrate on using / building linear PSU’s. Unfortunately I don’t read so much on ‘sinking’ or ‘filtering’ noise that ‘dirty’ components are throwing into the power supply lines.
Although I sometimes post long posts (like this one) I’m not the kind of guy who likes lengthy exchanges on ‘philosophically’ or ‘scientifically’ arguments if something might work or not. My motto is: if you think (after good, sound and thoughtful consideration) something might work: than just try it.
So yes I’m considering too buy one. Gstew already provided me with a lots of information on the subject and also some guidance on which model too choose. But he also provided so much more other info and alternatives, that I first have too think and read about that.
Meanwhile I’m going too ask FMAK how he is doing his LF and HF filtering. It seems he belongs to the few inmates who not only concentrate on providing clean power but also on keeping it clean (filtering). I’m very interested in how he does it.
fully AOB optimized cMP2 PC -> Lynx AES16 -> XLR AES/EBU -> Lavry Black DA10 -> XLR Mogami Gold -> Klein & Hummel O300
as opposed to linear supplies which are pretty easy to get ninety percent right.
No one is interested, it seems, in building a LINN or NAGRA quality switcher for the computer so we are stuck doing it the old fashioned way.
The task is easier for a cMP machine versus a gaming computer since our demands on the machine are pretty steady. I cannot imagine there being large jumps in current demand while playing music.
I think fmak is using the PICO but I do not believe he has said what he uses to power that. He is using an ATOM board which probably makes the powering easier in exchange for not having as much control on the MB's BIOS. All is compromise.
It would be interesting for someone with the gear to test the PICO with a high quality 12 volts supply for ripple. It is probably unfair of me to compare the SILENT PC test results when they used the supplied power brick. It very well is almost as good as the Herculean approach. One can still power the P4 with a separate linear supply and get almost to where the fully linear supplies can get us.
Sorry for the surmising. I hope you do not feel I am waxing philosophically.
Embarrassed that I missed the three pin regulators on the German supply. Just looked down there too quickly and assumed it was just rectifiers. That does seem to make 2/3's of the supply rather pedestrian and something you could do for yourself. It is not that hard to assemble a three pin regulator supply.
Looking forward to hearing what you decide to do.
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