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In Reply to: RE: cMP - the open source high-end Memory Player posted by cics on December 30, 2007 at 05:42:01
Thx to Hfavandenpas who recommended me to power the p4 with the Linear PSU as well the performace is truly stunning now, it was very good before using it on p24 with the pico psu but now...
All german cMP² users not beeing able to build a linear psu themselves like me have to buy the Peaktech 6080 and a Pico PSU 150 xt ! For 45,-€ the peaktech costs it was a stupidly good upgrade in my system !
Follow Ups:
I know I'm reopening an old subject here but I need some feedback.
I just bought the Velleman PSU (or Peaktech)and the ATX pico PSU to upgrade my cmp^2. I'm pretty excited about this easy upgrade but I have one question:
Should I power my other periphericals (ex: HDD and USB port) with my Antec Earthwatt PSU or with the GD psu's?
Does it really matter anyways? I'm planning on powering the P24 and P4 with the Velleman.
Thanks for your opinions!
Etienne
Hi Etienne,
I stumbled on your post and would like too suggest too take care in chosing the right picoPSU model.
Chosing the right picoPSU model (which leaves the 12v line untouched) is important.
Not al picoPSU’s are made by the same concept. Some picoPSU models leave the 12 V line untouched and pas the 12V line straight on too the MoBo. But there are other picoPSU models that don’t leave the 12 V line untouched and also regulate the 12 V line.
I first bought the wrong picoPSU model. A PW-200-M w/P4-ATX. This model also regulates the 12 V line which results in almost no sound quality improvement over a standard ATX switching PSU with ‘smoothing caps’ on the P4. It’s not worth the trouble to change a ‘smoothing capped’ ANTEC ATX PSU for an picoPSU PW-200-M w/P4-ATX IMHO.
I know of at least one picoPSU model ( 150-XT ) that leaves the 12 v line untouched. This model passes the 12 V line straight on too the MoBo. But there may be more picoPSU models that leave the 12V line untouched.
fully AOB optimized cMP2 PC -> Lynx AES16 -> XLR AES/EBU -> Lavry Black DA10 -> XLR Mogami Gold -> Klein & Hummel O300
It's done!!! Hurray! That upgrade was easyer than I though.
Sweet now my cMP^2 has 1 Velleman PSU which powers the P4 and the P24 and 1 GD that power the USB port and the HDD.
After just an hour of listening (not fully burned in yet) it's really stunning! I'm completely amazed!!
Can I leave the Velleman PSU running 24/7? Is that safe? I'm not 100% confident....
One other thing. Should I try to feed my PC exactly 12v or I should try to lower the voltage as low as I can?
Thanks for all your help!
Etienne
Hi Etienne,Indeed adding linear PSU’s to power the P4 and P24 pins on the cMP MoBo is really easy.
Keep in mind though that the 5 V and the 3.3 V line are still powered by switching circuitries on the picoPSU. Although I expect the switching distortion being lower in a 12v DC picoPSU than in a 230 AC Volt ATX. But I’m no expert in this matter.
The 5 volt seems to be the most critical power-rail, so that is why the real PSU diehards here on the forum, also power the 5 volt rail with a linear PSU. But as you can read on the forum, unfortunately that is not so easy at all. I still haven’t found an simple and easy way too do that.
I see no real logic in crippling your picoPSU / Mobo combo through lowering the voltage untill such a low level that it stops functioning. It’s designed to work with 12 V. Lowering the voltage will only make life harder for correcting and adjustment circuitries on the picoPSU and/or MoBo.
Like Gstew already suggested: do some experimenting what sounds best: the GD or the old ATX for USB & HDD.
Also do some experiments with your earthing arrangements. Since you have more boxes now earthing arrangements are also important to pay attention too.
First try too discover what the correct position is of your AC 230 Volt plug into the mains power socket. You should chose the position which results in the lowest possible ‘AC residue voltage’ on the outer housing of your Velleman. (put your multimeter on AC-position. And than check which plug position in the 230 AC socket, results in lowest possible ‘AC residue voltage’ on the outer housing and a REAL EARTH (!) connection.)
Also check your DAC, Amps, ect if they are also connected too the mains with the 230 V AC plug in a position that will result in lowest ‘AC residue voltage’ on the outer housing.
(grrr :-( Third Edit )
I forgot to mention: when you do these measurements, you first have to connect the equipment you want too measure, to a non-earthed AC socket and disconnect from other equipment. Make notes of which 230 AC V pin is the ‘hot’ / ‘live’ pin.
After you found out what the position is which results in the lowest ‘AC residue voltage’ on the housing, than re-connect to the aerthed 230 AC wall socket you normaly use. But… be sure too connect it again with the ‘hot’ / ‘live’ pin in the same position as you discovered while doing the measurements on the non-earthed AC socket. Hope this is a somehow a clear explanation :-)
Also like TheoB discovered (and Cics also suggested) earthing and earthing arrangements are also important. I discovered this too. When I wired together: the outer housing/ case of my DAC too the outer housing / Zahlman case of my cMP. The stereo-image became really much better. So do some experimenting by wiring together the outer housings of some / all of your ‘boxes’ and listen for improvement.
For safety reasons al outer cases must be aerthed inside the box. Thus al housings can already ‘see’ each other through these earth connections. Strangely enough though, sometimes there is still sound quality improvement when connection the outer casings together with an extra wire.
In my setup there is improvement when I connect the housing of the DAC and the PC-case together. Connecting other cases together makes no SQ difference in my setup.
Though when listening for improvements, beware of placebo-effects!!
I personally believe that much of the so called ‘break in improvements’ are placebo-effects and/or adjustment too the new sound.
(if there is any new sound or real sound quality improvement at all !)I switch off the Velleman, since it saves energy. I also always switch it of when leaving the house. Thus avoiding risk off overheating and fire when I’m away from home.
fully AOB optimized cMP2 PC -> Lynx AES16 -> XLR AES/EBU -> Lavry Black DA10 -> XLR Mogami Gold -> Klein & Hummel O300
Edits: 08/19/10 08/19/10 08/19/10 08/19/10
Hi
Thanks (again!) for the nice reply (and your multiple edits!!)
By the way, I live in Canada so i'm on 120V.Thanks for all the detailed explanation about earthing, I'll sure get into that someday. For now I'll enjoy my current improvement. Plus, I'm not 100% sure I understood what you meant about the "position" of my plug into my main...
(Edit #1)
Unfortunattely I won't be able to test the audio difference between the GD and the Antec. I did some cable management to the Antec and I only left the P24 the P4 connectors. :-(
(end of Edit #1)This might be a weird and stupid question but are we 100% sure that the Velleman is a linear PSU? I looked at the operating manual (which is super small) and it doesn't really mention it. I was really suprised to find a linear power supply that cheap. Every other linear PSU were over 2 or 3 times (or more) the money. The sales guy was also sceptical that the Velleman (Peaktek) was linear, he thought it was a switching mode power supply.
Anyways, it was still a major improvement on my system and I'm super happy I made the move! I was really excited to get back from work today! :-)
Thanks again for your help and to everybody who made this possible!
Etienne
Edits: 08/19/10
Hi Etienne,
A while ago Cics pointed me at the Velleman linear PSU. It’s indeed very cheap but with good specs. However I don’t know how trustworthy those specs are. Chinese do everything to sell there products. Which often means: also bending the truth a little. I hope that Velleman will live up too there reputation.
Too make you feel comfortable I shot a photo of the inside. You can see the transformer coil. So it’s a linear one.
Enjoy.
fully AOB optimized cMP2 PC -> Lynx AES16 -> XLR AES/EBU -> Lavry Black DA10 -> XLR Mogami Gold -> Klein & Hummel O300
Edits: 08/20/10
One again, hanks for the answer and for the picture!
So it is linear after all! Yay!
Good to know!
Etienne
My suggestion is to try powering the peripherals both ways (GD & Antec) and see what sonic diffs you hear. I suspect you will hear clear diffs... just not sure which will be better. My money's on the GD's, but the only way to tell is to try. Do give them time to warm up before making absolute judgements... probably about 2 hours each.
And yes, I suspect strongly it will matter. In my early experimentation on this, I was using a home-made linear on the HDD, USB, and Touchsreen and what brand of caps I used in the power supply made a clear audible difference... go figure!
My 2 cents.
Greg in Mississippi
Everything matters!
Hi,
I've read and reread your post (and follow ups) and I'm thinking of buying the Vellman (Peaktech) linear PS unit to provide power to my P4 connector (at least).
I have few questions though.
1 - Are you using 1 Vellman PS to power both P4 and P24 connector?
2 - The Vellman is connected directly to the P4 and connected to a PicoPSU for the P24?
Am I correct? I'm a bit confused about the P4/P24 and picoPSU setup.
Thanks
Etienne
Hi Etienne,I stumbled upon your post and saw you weren’t getting any reply’s, so here’s mine.
1. You can indeed use one (1) Velleman to power both the P4 and the P24 connector.
Note A:
the Velleman can deliver 3 Amps max. Sometimes (- don’t know why only ‘sometimes’- ), this is not enough too start the MoBo with BIOS settings: ‘Optimized defaults’. In case you need to run the MoBo with ‘Optimized’ BIOS settings, just temporarily connect your 230 volt Antec ATX PSU too the P24 pin.Note B.
Also: if you still have your 230 v (Antec) ATX PSU, you can now use it too power the ‘dirty components’ like USB, HDD ect instead of using the Grannite Digital (GD) PSU’s).Note C.
Experiment with connecting the 230 v (Antec) switching ATX PSU to another electrical 230 v circuit than your Velleman linear PSU. The (Antec) switching ATX PSU (- as any other switching PSU -) is heavily polluting the 230 v circuit where it takes the 230 V power from. When the Velleman is on the same 230 v circuit, this pollution is degrading the 12 volt output from the Velleman. In my setup it makes a big difference in sound quality when the (Antex) swithing ATX PSU is connected too an other 230 v circuit.
2. The Velleman is connected directly to the P4 and directly to a PicoPSU for the P24.
The Velleman can be easily connected too the P4 by using a P4 extension cable.Note: be sure to chose the right Pico model (!). A Pico PSU is also a switching PSU and as such, it will give no improvement in sound quality, over any other switching PSU.
However……….. there are some Pico models which leave the 12 volt line untouched, and pass the 12 volt line directly onto the MoBo. When these specific Pico models are fed with 12 volt from a linear PSU, than a sound quality improvement can be expected.
So choosing the right Pico model is important.
Enjoy.
Mark
fully AOB optimized cMP2 PC -> Lynx AES16 -> XLR AES/EBU -> Lavry Black DA10 -> XLR Mogami Gold -> Klein & Hummel O300
Edits: 06/14/10
Is that basically the same as this unit?http://www.frys.com/product/5095835?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG
I saw this at Fry's today and was intrigued, but they were closing and had to get moving with my regular shopping. I saw nothing about it being linear, but are all lab style units like this one linear power supplies?
All the raves about linear PSUs has me very interested in trying it. If the above unit would work, how would I make it work with the P4 connector?
Dave
Edits: 05/25/10 05/25/10
how would I make it work with the P4 connector?
I would buy a Pico PSU150 and feed both, p4 and p24 with the linear psu though the pico psu. You can use normal 4mm banana plugs or buy a sort of cable like i did, see the other post for details http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/pcaudio/messages/7/75188.html
I'm also very interested in getting linear PSU for my system. Could you confirm the following:
1) How did you set and conncect the peaktech 6080 to P4 socket? (diy cable?)
2) Pico PSU is used to feed ATX (P24) socket?
3) What PSU did you use before the upgrade? (I use Antec CP-850 (removed fan, very low noise and ripple)
I am also thinking about getting kurouto shikou no-pci cards, do you have some experiences with them?
http://www.kuroutoshikou.com/products/etc/no-pci+fset.html
http://www.kuroutoshikou.com/products/etc/no-pci-express.html
http://www.kuroutoshikou.com/products/etc/no-pci.html
1) How did you set and conncect the peaktech 6080 to P4 socket? (diy cable?)
2) Pico PSU is used to feed ATX (P24) socket?
3) What PSU did you use before the upgrade? (I use Antec CP-850 (removed fan, very low noise and ripple)
I am also thinking about getting kurouto shikou no-pci cards, do you have some experiences with them?
1) I power the pico psu 150xt with the peaktech, i use this copper "measuring" banana plug cable http://www.reichelt.de/?ACTION=3;ARTICLE=12456;PROVID=2402
and connect through a luster terminal with a p4 extension cable wich is plugged to the pico psu p4 input connector.
2) Yes
3) I used the same Pico PSU with a DELL DA1 power brick connected to pico´s p4 input before, it was slightly better than with a seasonic 430w. wich i tried also. The seasonic is now powering usb and HDD´s. Fans removed of course.
It´s the first time i see the korouto cards, how would you use them, what´s it original purpose ?
It´s the first time i see the korouto cards, how would you use them, what´s it original purpose ?
--------
The purpose is filtering of power, some kind of motherboard's power filtering support. Objective is rather clear, isn't it? :) Cleaner power - better sound
I don't know if I could order, as far as I know ther're rather hard to get. Probably gonna have to order directly from Japan, if that's possible.
OK, now I'll write sth about my system. It's based on ASUS M4A78T-E and AMD X3 720 Black Edition CPU (with unlocked 4th core, underclocked to 1GHz, undervolted to 0.825V), ram is 2x2GB Goodram pro 2000 (at 800MHz, cl5, 1T, 1.5V - mobo can't get lower). Almost everything disabled in BIOS, lowest voltage and operating clocks available. The cooler is Thermalright Ultra 120 Extreme Copper Edition, no fans at all. Intel SSD G2 80GB for OS and 2x 1.5TB Samsung Eco drives for data. For powering 24 pin I use Antec CP-850 (removed fan) - http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story2&reid=142 - very low ripple. For 4pin and drives I use Seasonic M12-430 also fanless - very nice improvement.
How would describe further changes. Is it worth replacing two good quality, fanless switching PSUs with linear PSU + Pico? Is there much to be gained? Power supply is very important for me, especially that I use Cantatis Overture sound card (analog) - simply amazing!!!
Best regards,
Marcin
How would describe further changes. Is it worth replacing two good quality, fanless switching PSUs with linear PSU + Pico? Is there much to be gained? Power supply is very important for me, especially that I use Cantatis Overture sound card (analog) - simply amazing!!!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dunno the power consuption of your rig and if the little linear psu could handle a boot up if you power both with it, p4 and p24. The good is that as long you stick with the recommended hardware for cMP² you can be sure that it will work. But in your case trying out it´s worth it anyway i would say.
I just googled your soundcard, never heard of it before. Have you compared it to an edecent xternal dac or perhaps with juli@ analog board ?
In the past i had a onkyo se 200 soundcard wich was claimed to be one of the best non pro soundcards and it was fully loaded with capacitators and stuff, just looked like from another planet. It wasn´t bad, better than the xfi stuff i was used to back then.
Then i compared it with a used 100$ yamaha av receiver and the soundcard was outperformed clearly by the avr´s dac.
From my standpoint the manufacturers of those "audiophile" soundcards ( especially asus ) would do better in producing dedicated audio mainboards and / or linear atx psu´s etc.
Cantatis Overture is in other league. My friend says is close to Altmann Attraction DAC. It's definately the best sound card if you consider analog outs. I think that it could compete with ten times more expensive external DAC-s. Oh, and of course I don't have to worry about S/PDIF converter, cable etc I could focus on improving power supply of PC and other elements of my system.
I just googled the altman dac ( wich i didn´t knew ) and found out that the creator lives just 10min away from here..lmaoI was looking for a decent 192khz capable external dac anyway wich doesnt fiddles to much with the signal and couldn´t find one. Very curious that the solution could be so near :D
I possibly test his device @ home if he lents it to me ;)
thx for tip
Btw, have you proofed if you could power your soundcard by a linear supply like some members here power their juli@ cards ?
If you want just Pm me, it´s just a pain conversating in this mammut thread ;)
Edits: 05/31/10
Oh yes, based on the looks and specs the mentionend Velleman PSU is identical to the Peaktech 6080...
(well.. Peaktech does not have a "backlit" LC display.. dunno if this is really true for the Velleman)IIRC the Velleman is available in America, whereas the Peaktek is avail in Europe (where I reside).
I am really curious about the use of low resistance AWG6 wire like fellow member hfavandepas recommends (used between linear PSU and P24 and P4)
Edits: 05/25/10 05/25/10
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