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In Reply to: RE: cMP - the open source high-end Memory Player posted by cics on December 30, 2007 at 05:42:01
Hi Everyone!
I'll add some of my thoughts regarding CMP2 (CMP+cPlay). I've been testing/listening a lot lately on both of my machines. One is a top notch Phenom II X4@3.7Ghz, 8GB DDR3 2000MHz RAM, top Asus motherboard, Intel 80GB G2 SSD for system (win 7 64bit) and eco drives from Samsung for data. PSU is Antec CP-850 (best PSU I've seen so far, Seasonic M12II-430 in my second system looks like a toy compared to that Antec). It's cooled by THermalright Ultra 120 Copper Edition, everything in Antec P183 case + some Fander fans. Anyway, I've been testing different players, settings etc on this machine. Few weeks ago Foobar 0.8.3 @Kernel Streaming and SRC at 96kHz was the best I could hear. Lilith Player was to "digital" and edgy, new Foobar also sounded unreal to me, especially vocals. Then I tried new engine in XXHighEnd which uses Kernel Streaming and with low Q1 setting, unattended - that was it! I thought it could'nt get any better until I ran cPlay. Then the idea of creating dedicated audio server on my old machine came up (X2@1.9Ghz, mATX biostar, passively cooled in Silverstone TJ08 case). I created a minimal, preoptimized version of XP sp3 with nLite (only 150 MB image), used cics recommendations and far beyond that when it comes to disabling unnecessary components. You want to know how it sounds? Huh, it sounds so good that my girlfriend (who is rather "deaf") is fine with second PC in 12m2 room. Nothing comes even close to CMP2, it's so detailed and airy with no signs of fatigue at the same time.
Gordon from Wavelength wouldn't believe me. He said I should go with new JRiver Media Center @WASAPi and memory playback checked. I have to admit it sounds fine, but lacks of detail, dynamics and bass control. CMP > all
Or is it anything else I should try?
PS
Can't wait for new SPDIF converter from Wavelength. The WaveLink is going to be 24/192 asynchonous unit, battery powered (feeding from usb's 5V when it's idle), with bnc and coaxial adapter. Gordon says is going to have about 100 times smaller jitter than my M-Audio Transit (TAS1020B in adaptive mode)
->cics
I'd suggest (next to nLite) Win32PrioritySeparation set to 38 value (it's in regedit, you can easily google it).
THANK YOU FOR YOUR WORK!
Follow Ups:
I was under the impression that Wavelength products do not use an ASIO driver. Are you aware of this? Am I correct?
That means you would not be able to use it with cPlay unless you use ASIO4ALL. And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't ASIO4ALL limited to 16/48?
Gordon Rankin - Owner and Chief Scientist of WaveLength - says ASIO is bad for audio playback, and quoting "Marcin... you have started your engine. Now you need to look forward to the ride. XP/ASIO is in your rear view mirror." Man's got a point from a programmer point of view, that's for sure - ASIO was never meant to be used for playback. But here we are, we know the difference - nothing comes even close to CMP2. (I haven't tried MAC with Amarra or Pure Vinyl though, have to give it a shot in future)
According to ASIO4ALL, as far as I know, playback at 24/192 is possible, but I wouldn't go with ASIO4ALL if I were you. Ploytec ASIO drivers are much better solution - http://usb-audio.com/
Firstly thanks for the great feedback.
ASIO is freely available (on email request) from Steinberg. They provide source for it's baseline and both host & driver samples - its simple and OPEN. ASIO's beauty lies in how one implements it. Some soundcard manufacturers do a great job and continuously provide better releases (eg Lynx's new driver 17RC3e which gives subtle but useful improvement). Same applies to playback software.
Great thing ASIO offers is platform independence (Windows & OSX), low latency performance and consumers have plenty to choose from.
hi there.. i am using asio in foobar2000 0.96. so should i use Kernel stream or asio to get the best sound?
Thank you! I had not realized Lynx had a driver update late last year. T.
No worries!
Problems with update file!
Unable to open destination file"DIFx32.Dll"
Get ProcAddress failed
T.
No worries!
M,
I contacted ploytec and they did confirm that their driver could handle 24/192.
But they said that the only product licensed is the yellotec
Gordon Rankin . . . says ASIO is bad for audio playback
LOL. Wow, a manufacturer told you his product is great and the other guy's version is crap. Shocker. Gee, do you think he's trying to sell you something? C'mon, of course he said ASIO is bad, none of his products use ASIO. What's he going to tell you, "ASIO is great, but buy my stuff anyway."
ASIO was never meant to be used for playback
ASIO was developed by and for the Pro Audio industry for recording studios and DAWs. How do you figure it was never meant to be used?
Listen, I'm not trying to be a fanboy for ASIO. If you want to start a debate or comparison between Windows XP w/ASIO and Windows Vista/7 w/WASAPI, that's your prerogative. But manufacturers comments, whose only agenda is to sell their products, do not really have a place in that discussion. And it's one thing if he comes in here making those types of comments, but it's also just as bad if you are here to shill for him. If you want to make personal comments about his products and provide your personal opinion based on your listening experiences, then that is a welcome discussion. But I don't think it's appropriate to make a post that is just presenting his marketing spewage.
C'mon, of course he said ASIO is bad, none of his products use ASIO.
LOL. Yep I remember when he was deriding anything above 44.1...until he could do higher.....
Chill Edward, I wrote "nothing comes even close to CMP2", if i didn't like it, I wouldn't be here in the first place. I'm trying to discuss different matters though and get your opinion on those.
Greets,
Marcin
No worries Marcin, I am indeed always chilled. However, you don't get to play "holier-than-thou" and TELL me to chill. That's not necessary.
You say you wrote "nothing comes even close to CMP2", but you wrote much more than that. You came in to a dedicated thread about an ASIO only music player and presented what appeared to be your opinion that ASIO sucks. You quoted Gordon, but presented it as if it was your opinion as well. This is why I responded. I was just asking for clarification on this topic.
And also I just wanted to remind you that it is against the rules for trade people to post advertisements and sales information about the products they sell. And if you do that for them, then it just makes you look like a shill. So perhaps you can just desist with quoting Gordon and his marketing information.
On the other hand, we welcome anything you have to contribute to this project/hobby and help further any advancements.
Cheers.
Marcin says,I'd suggest...Win32PrioritySeparation set to 38 value
I'm assuming you are referring to a Decimal Value of 38 (which is a Hex value of 0x26). This gives priority to the Foreground. See chart:
Win32PrioritySeparation
0x28, 0x29, 0x2A
0x18, 0x19, 0x1A
0x24
0x25, 0x14
0x26
0x15
0x16
Foreground
18
36
6
12
18
24
36
Background
18
36
6
6
6
6
6
"We" have already tested the values that give the Foreground and Background the same values (6:6, 18:18, 36:36) and the "cics" recommended is a Hex Value of 0x28 (18:18).Have you tried this value? And are you saying you prefer Foreground Priority (18:6)? Can you describe what you are hearing in this comparison?
Thanks
Edits: 02/20/10
the "cics" recommended is a Hex Value of 0x28 (18:18)The suggestion was first made by carcass93 about 18 months ago - see link, which includes references. I don't know if the settings have been revisited - I certainly have not checked them.
Edits: 02/21/10
What about IRQ#Priority dword (value set to 1)? # set to sound card's IRQ or system's realtime clock (default 8)?
Haven't tried your settings yet, I wasn't aware that you tested win32priorityseparation.
You wrote that you "used cics recommendations and far beyond that when it comes to disabling unnecessary components"
Willing to share your additional configuration details?
Greg in Mississippi
Everything matters!
Firstable, I didn't install clean XP os. Instead I prepared preoptimized installation in nLite (without unnecessary components, services, drivers, etc). This way, you don't have to mess with registry once your installation is finished. I think it's safer that way and we're sure that nothing leaves behind. The only thing that I install are soundcard drivers, CMP and cPlay (minlogon ofcourse). Other optimizations:
- cPlay in realtime mode
- don't use integrated USB controller, instead I use PCI-to-USB controller (even ploytec advises to use one of those: "it gives you USB2.0 ports with high quality and better USB clock stability. With most USB1.1 audio designs this will reduce jitter in the audio, leading to better sound quality.")
- overvoltage SB and NB about 5%
In near future I'm planning to:
- replace system disk with SSD
- use eSATA adapter with separate power for HDD with music (outside of case)
- use dedicated audio PSU from Trends PW-10 to feed my soundcard (m-audio transit)
- test PCI Express USB controller (I wonder if there will be any advantages over regular PCI to USB controller...)
Oh, forgot to mention about other things I intend to do/modify:
- SSD for system
- HDD's for music outside - eSATA to dock station with separate PSU
- Power replacement for USB (since my card is USB powered) but using external PSU for audio - Trends PW-10
I'm wondering if USB 3.0 makes any difference for audio playback. Did you try it?
Also, I'd like to know if anyone tried PCI Express to USB adapter for USB sound card. I have very good results with standard PCI to USB adapter.
Besides, I wanted to replace my standard drivers with the ones from ploytec, however I didn't manage to do this. My card seems to be not supported, too bad.
With all modifications mentioned + fully optimized OS, I don't think it could get any better. Maybe experimenting with power conditioners, cords etc.
Greets,
Marcin
Hey Marcin,
So glad you are getting great results!! CMP2 is the best results I have gotten from a pc myself.
Or is it anything else I should try?
I would recommend using the hardware that cics recommends...
Hi Dawnrazor,
I think that my hardware is fine. I don't need extra performance from Intel's CPU, I'll upgrade to Core i3 once I get 24/192 capable converter to replace my Transit. It's going to be usb asynchronous unit with good clocks and battery power. I want to separate from PC as much as possible, that's why I don't want to use internal PCI/PCI-E cards. Maybe Lynx AES 16-E PCI-E, but in distant future. I'm gonna try with SSD though and power re-route for USB, since my card is USB powered. Is it worth it, can anybody confirm that switching to PSU directly gives better results?
I'd be thankfull if anyone could give me some other valuable tips :)
I'm gonna try to install CMP on my new PC, just to try how much CPU, MB and good PSU (Antec CP-850) bring into SQ. I'll let you know about my results.
Greets to all PC-Audiophiles!
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