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In Reply to: RE: P24 current measurements. posted by hfavandepas on November 18, 2009 at 06:55:44
Mark,
yes right, I forgot your overvoltage settings that I had read about in your recent thread. Amazing that this results in such a substantial increase in power consumption on the 5v rail.
Well, on your 'PSU improvements part 3': Now that you have optimized your pico already, I'm afraid there's nothing much you can do to optimize 5v when leaving the pico in place, at least I don't see it. The next step IMHO really would always have to involve taking out the pico and supplying three separate voltage rails externally (linear, battery, in whatever configuration). And unless you use some module to do the timing and ramp up stuff to power up right (provided there is one which I belive is the case, I just haven't managed to track it down) this has to involve switching over from ATX to linear or similar after booting. I would not consider it too complicated, there's info and documents how to do this, but it surely involves soldering and a bit of electronic knowledge, and some courage ;-) You see there's a reason why almost nobody (at least as far as I can see, I'd love to be corrected) has taken that step to surpass pico and power P24 rails independently...
I can't think of any more useful or encouraging news, maybe others can look at it from different angles and come up with a promising way that I haven't seen?
Best,
Robert
Follow Ups:
Hi averyone,
This is my firs post and english is my not first language.
I build CMP^2 with external linear PSU ( four Power one/ Condor units ).
Inside computer - one 3.3v battery for July@ and two battery 3.3v for MOBO, one battery -9v ( insted -12v, work fine) for start only.
I also use Audio grade caps for all linear and five Mundorf Tube cap 47mf on top of linear / battery. Small by pass cap .01 mf as well.
For wiring - 0.3mm Silver plated cupper. All ideas from this forum, you know.
Great thanks Cics and all followers.
Bertel,
this is my approach maybe will be usefull to you.
I do powering up manualy - first I swich all power on , then push start button on computer then Power Good swich . I do swich off -12v after all.
Most inportant , I think, I can restart computer by wireless mouse not touching any switches .( -12v still off)
About timing , by the book , Power Good singal sould be delayed on 0.5 second . I can't find nothing, about what should be powered first, so I swich on HDD and then rest.
I use B31 , in my set up after about 30 hours break-in B32 was not so resolving as B31.
Best, Gene.
Hi Gene_,Thank you for demystifying the ATX start-up process and for sharing on the Audio Asylum forum. You showed the way to a full linear cMP2 power supply !! Thanx you very much.
I have a question about timing the PWR-OK signal and a question about using a relay to switch the PWR-OK signal.
-> Question about timing the PWR_OK signal
The ATX formfactor says:
- the timing has to be: PWR_OK delay 100 ms <- Timing <- 500 ms.The +5V Power_Okay signal should be switched to pin 8 within 500 milliseconds. How do you do that by hand?
Or…… is it not so critical after all? And can it also be done by hand? Even after 1, 2 or 3 seconds?
-> Switching PWR-OK with help of a relay?
I was thinking of switching the +5V PWR_OK signal to pin 8 (grey wire) with the help of a relay (with some time delay).
This relay acts on pin 14 (green wire)the PWR-UP signal.- Idea.
* First: normal ATX PSU start-up proceeding
You power pin 9 (purple wire) with +5 volt because the Power Control Circuit (PCC) on the MoBo reacts on pushing the start-up button.When the PCC is active (+5 volt on pin 9) and the start-up button is pressed, the PCC than will drop the power on pin 14 (green). No power on pin 14 (green wire) signals the ATX PSU to power up.
When the ATX PSU has it’s power up, the ATX PSU than gives +5 volt to pin 8 (Grey wire). With +5V on pin 8, the PCC now starts the processor.
* Giving PWR-OK signal when using all linear PSU’sSwitch on 3.3, 5 and 12 volt to P24.
Which also powers pin 9 (purple wire) with +5v (standby function). This way the Power Control Circuit (PCC) of the MoBo is active and thus also pin 14 (green wire) gets +5Volt from the PCC.When PCC is active and the start-up button is pushed, the +5V on pin 14 (green wire) is dropped by the PCC. This causes the relay to switch +5V to pin 8 (grey wire) as PWR_OK signal to the PCC.
With PWR-OK signal on pin 8 (+5V on grey wire) the PCC allows processor to start working.
Since the 3.3, 5 and 12 Volt is already switched on as being the first step, the processor will have no problem starting.
I was brought to this idea because some websites also say:
"Some extremely el-cheapo power supplies may "fake" the Power Good signal by just tying it to another +5 V line. Such a system essentially has no Power Good functionality and will cause the motherboard to try to start the system before the power has fully stabilized.”
http://www.pcguide.com/ref/power/sup/funcPowerGood-c.html
Do you (or any other inmates) think this could work?
fully AOB optimized cMP2 PC -> Lynx AES16 -> XLR AES/EBU -> Lavry Black DA10 -> XLR Mogami Gold -> Klein & Hummel O300
Edits: 11/23/09
Hi Mark,
I am also read about poorly designed ATX PSU, it is incourage me to try .
I am was not sure sistem will be restarted but it did. I use more switches as a heritage from previous set up. My set up proove -3 switches enough ( not take in account -12v) , HDD, Rest of voltage, Power Good. I did try minutes ago deferent combination - All voltage
without HDD , then HDD then Power Good and it started !
So, we can expect two switches will be enough. Remember ' cheapo 'ATX ?
Mark, of couse, relay can give you convenience of remote control power.
I placed switches on front panel, so it convenience to use , look as standard HI-FI chassis.
About ATX factor standart. Maybe hardware manufactures not forgot about us :-). I was give to MOBO by mistake -1.8v instead of positive
voltage , power up cMP^2 complite - nothing happen.
Best, Gene.
Hi Gene_,
Thank you very much for your reply. Your reply encouraged me too also try to give the PWR_OK signal by hand (manually).
Since I already had a modified P24 extension cable which I used for the P24 current measurements. I put a little black switch on pin 8 (power good, grey wire). See photo. For simplicity reasons, I put the ANTEC Earth Watts 430 on the P24 extension cable to power the MoBo.
Giving the PWR_OK signal manually on pin 8 (grey wire) at P24 connector. cMP2 project.
With 230 AC on the ANTEC Earth Watts, the ANTEC provides a +5 Volt stand-by signal on pin 9 (purple wire) for feeding the PCC (Power Control Circuit) on the MoBo.
When the PCC is active it gives a +5 Volt on pin 14 (Power ON, Green wire) to the ATX PSU, which signals the ATX PSU, NOT (!) to power-up.
When the Power Button is pushed, the PCC drops the power on pin 14. No Power on P14 is the signal for the ANTEC Earth Watts to power up.
But because of the switch I placed on the grey wire (pin 8), the ANTEC Earth Watts can not give a Power Okay (PWR_OK) signal to the PCC on the MoBo. Although the ANTEX powers the 3.3, 5 and 12 Volt rails, there is no signal on pin 8 (grey wire), thus the PCC will not start the PC.
When the PWR_OK signal on pin 8 (grey wire) is given manually with a switch, the PCC starts the PC. The PWR_OK signal can be given manually at any desired time, provided there is power at the 3.3, 5 and 12 Volt rails. Giving the PWR_OK signal manually on pin 8, is indeed not time critical(on my GA-G31M-ES2L MoBo)!
Thank you for sharing on the forum! The road to an all Linear powered cMP2 PC is open !
Mark
fully AOB optimized cMP2 PC -> Lynx AES16 -> XLR AES/EBU -> Lavry Black DA10 -> XLR Mogami Gold -> Klein & Hummel O300
Hi Mark,
I am happy my experience was useful for you. I am pretty long time
read yours and another CiCs followers post on this forum so maybe it is
just evolutional devolopment :-)
One another tips for " warm" start. I use 12v-20WA spot light balb, placed on CPU and connected to 5V stand by , so it will heat CPU to 37'C all time. Need one more swich or interconect for disconnecting.
Best ,Gene.
Hi Gene,
many thanks for your post, and welcome to the Asylum! :-)
This is very interesting! So do I understand you correctly, you ARE able to power up the computer manually without ATX power supply? So you switch on P4 rail, power for Juli@, and 3.3V, 5V and 12V, then you push the computer's start button, and then you switch on PowerGood - and the computer boots up? Is that how you do it and that works?
I don't think though that you need -12V at all, I never had connected it in my setups.
Thank you,
Robert
Hi Robert,
As you can see from picture there is no any ATX PSU in a MP^2 ,
and I do power up my MP^2 one month with only one error
( battery -9v was dead , I put exstra swich for disconecting)
My linear external PSU has two AC switches, one for HDD supply and another for the rest three +12, +12, +5v.
Battery , Pawer Good and Charger switches all placed on front of MP^2.
Best, Gene.
- Can you power CPU (P4) using the "dirty" PS? You should get an improvement.
- Do you have a circuit diagram with powering sequence for P24?
Hi Cics,
many Thanks for Great Project. I never listen CD before, tryed a lot.
1.I use 4 linear PSU : +12v (3A) for CPU, (+4700mf cap, +47mf Tube cap)
+12v (3A) for MOBO,(+ 4700mf cap, +47mf Tube cap)
+5v (6A) for MOBO,(+9400mf cap, +47mf Tube cap )
+5V (3A) for HDD.( also as a charger for 3.3v)
Use 1 battery +3.3v for July@ ( + 47mf Tube Cap)
3 battery +3.3v for MOBO (+ 47mf Tube Cap)
1 battery -9v for MOBO
so as you see , all separate.
2. I do swich first -9v, HDD, then by one swich all three linear then 3.3v for MOBO and 3.3v for JUly@ - last one Power Good.
I can restart computer from my sofa.
Best Gene.
Hi Robert, thanks for welcome
I do need -12v, if I forgot swiching on -12v , HDD light not flasning
computer never boot.
It is not very complicated rewire computer, it is just look scary .
I use this set up about one month , for MOBO 3.3v- I use three battery
not two as I said in last post .
Will try send a picture PSU and Computer.
Best, Gene.
Hi Robert, thanks for welcome
I do need -12v, if I forgot swiching on -12v , HDD light not flasning
computer never boot.
It is not very complicated rewire computer, it is just look scary .
I use this set up about one month , for MOBO 3.3v- I use three battery
not two as I said in last post .
Will try send a picture PSU and Computer.
Best, Gene.
Hi Greg,
yes, you're right, I remember the -12v rail needs to be present at the time the computer startup process is started by pushing the start button. Once the power up process has started it can be switched off and isn't needed anymore.
I have tried switching all the "special" lines in different timings and sequences before but hadn't succeeded. I must have overlooked something, I'll try switching PowerGood separately. That will help a lot - thank you Greg for reporting this!
Best,
Robert
Hi Robert,
Looking at the possibilities to optimize the 5 Volt, I also look at ‘the consumers’ of the 5 Volt. I look at it from a balanced sink <-> source perspective and how they influence each other. ‘Sinks / consumers’ of the 5 voltage are: the MoBo and the Juli@ soundcard. So, with a ‘high quality’ 5 volt source I could supply:
1. Only the Juli@ soundcard (with PCI power supply traces cut).
(bypassing the MoBo)
2. only the Mobo.
(which than also supply’s the Juli@ soundcard when PCI power supply traces are NOT cut)
3. separately supplying the Mobo + the juli@ soundcard (with PCI power supply traces cut)
Until now option 1. supplying a Juli@ soundcard (with PCI power supply traces cut) looks much easier than option 2: the Mobo stuff with the use of switches/relays ect.
But I can only makes a good judgement between option 1 and option 2, if I also know which ‘effort needed’ yields the most Sound Quality improvement. That’s why I asked (in an other thread) if it where possible to rank the sound quality improvements. But I still can spend some time on finding out. PSU improvements Part 3 will only start somewhere in spring 2010.
Mark
N.B. with al cMP2 BIOS settings + windows XP tunning/tweaks (incl min logon) applied my MoBo (GA-G31M-ES2L) it still needs 3.0 Amp while playing music. With both over-voltages in place, it even uses a wapping 3,25 Amps. I will have another close look, because I find the difference 2,47 <-> 3.0 very big.
fully AOB optimized cMP2 PC -> Lynx AES16 -> XLR AES/EBU -> Lavry Black DA10 -> XLR Mogami Gold -> Klein & Hummel O300
Mark,
I strongly recommend to cut (or just mask if you will) the PCI traces to Juli@, unsolder the regulator U1 (no big deal, really) and supply it externally with clean 3v3 and 5v (remember that only the analog part of Juli@ plus one or two chips consume very little current on the 5v rail, the vast majority are 3v3 consumers!) - you're isolating Juli@ from all interferences, noise etc. coming from the mobo's voltage rails plus supply good quality power in addition - little effort gives you maximum return! In terms of return on effort invested as well as in achievable sonic improvement, I'd say this is clearly priority #1! The results at least in my system (when also adjusting voltages externally supplied to exactly match those on the mobo) were in order of magnitudes above most others I had done.
Best,
Robert
Hi Bertel,Change off plans.
Since Gene_ showed how too power up the MoBo manually, my efforts to improve power supply to the cMP2 PC (PSU improvements part 3), will again be directed back to the 3,3 Volt and 5 Volt rail of the P24 connector.
In theory it now looks strikingly simple to realise a full linear power supply for the P24 connector:
- power the 3.3 Volt, 5 Volt and the 12Volt rail with a good Linear PSU or battery;
- also power the +5Volt stand-by on pin 9 (purple wire) to activate the Power Control Circuit on the MoBo;
- also give some -9 <-> -12 Volt (bleu wire) for starting the serial controller on the GA-G31M-ES2L MoBo;Switch manually (or with a relay) a +5 Volt signal (PWR_OK signal) to pin 8 (grey wire) and there you go. The PCC will start the MoBo.
Gene_ proved that giving the PWR_OK signal on pin 8 (grey wire) is not time critical at all.
It doesn't have to be done within 500 milliseconds as the ATX formfactor suggests.
The PWR_OK signal can be given at any desired time.
When there is power present on the 3.3 Volt, 5 Volt and the 12Volt rail and the Power Control Circuit is active (+5 volt on pin 9 (purple wire)), the PCC will start the MoBo.I tested this in my setup with the ANTEC Earth Watts and it works.
Giving the PWR_OK signal manually on pin 8 (grey wire) at P24 connector. cMP2 project. Gene_ already showed that it also works in his setup with a combo of linear PSU’s and battery power.
So when I have sold my Lynx L22 card, I will buy myself from that money, a very nice and decent linear laboratory PSU with two (3.3V, 5V) or may be even three (3.3V, 5V, 12V) quality DC outputs. And PSU improvements part 3 will be realised !!
A hybrid Power Supply solution on the P24 connector will no longer be necessary. A full computer linear power supply on the P24 connecter will than be realised. (with again many thankx to Gene_)
fully AOB optimized cMP2 PC -> Lynx AES16 -> XLR AES/EBU -> Lavry Black DA10 -> XLR Mogami Gold -> Klein & Hummel O300
Edits: 11/25/09 11/25/09
...power the 5V/3.3V rails directly with clean linear supplies, and the rest with your Pico PSU. Just buy or build the 5V/3.3V linear supplies, and you're good to go!
"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we would let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines." N.P.
Hi ‘ForgotPassword’,
Thank you very much! I didn’t think of that.
Indeed, the picoPSU is still very useful. The pico can provide the -12V and do ‘the talking’ too the Power Control Circuit to start-up the MoBo the easy way.
May be the shut-down process also could be handled nicer with the help of the pico.
I think your tip is also a good idea for battery users. I read that battery users also struggle with providing the voltages which do ‘the talking’ to the Power Control Circuit.
I hope that these threads inspires other inmates too, to come up with ideas to realise a full linear power supply the easy way.
Your tip made the setup for a full linear power supply again more simple and more easy (read: more ‘DIY-doable’).
Thank you.
Mark
fully AOB optimized cMP2 PC -> Lynx AES16 -> XLR AES/EBU -> Lavry Black DA10 -> XLR Mogami Gold -> Klein & Hummel O300
Pico surely makes life alot easier for novice DIYers like me. I believe it also helps SQ indirectly by reducing the number of relays/power switches in the power supplies.
On a side note, don't hesitate to aim for "overkill" capacity when building these supplies. I built the the 5v, 12v, and 3.3V supplies with 130VA trafo/LT1083, ~130VA/LT1084, and 30VA/LT1086, respectively. You could use a smaller transformer for the 12V supply, though. My 12V supply is excessively big only because it's the same one I used to power the Pico in its full glory.
"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we would let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines." N.P.
Hi Robert,
You make things easy. Thank you for the advice. So option 1. it will be.
1. Only the Juli@ soundcard (with PCI power supply traces cut). (bypassing the MoBo)
I think it’s also the most cost effective one.
As other inmates reports very good results with battery power, I’m even prepared to take a close look at ‘battery power’. :-)
Mark
fully AOB optimized cMP2 PC -> Lynx AES16 -> XLR AES/EBU -> Lavry Black DA10 -> XLR Mogami Gold -> Klein & Hummel O300
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