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In Reply to: RE: cMP - the open source high-end Memory Player posted by cics on December 30, 2007 at 05:42:01
As you remember, my issue was using JRiver.I am proceeding in small steps. I implemented the basic recommended Windows system changes and have been listening for a few days. I was surprised. I was expecting subtle changes but the resolution increased very noticeably. When using ASIO with the Lynx L22 before the changes, I found many recordings too detailed and sometimes fatiguing. It is a very resolving card to begin with. My system is also fairly resolving as well. I found that using direct sound with a DSP plugin (Audio Sandbox)has always worked the best for me. It softened the sound slightly and brought out the 3d hall ambiance nicely. The penalty was that I had to give up some resolution.
After the Windows system changes, the ASIO became extremely resolving. I can now hear many details, but the problem is that it includes the good, the bad, and the ugly. I could now hear tape hiss on many analogue recordings that I didn't notice before. I can hear intrusive groove noise on LP recordings that was less prominent before. Pages, turning, chairs, squeaking, faint coughs, all now there. I could probably hear Leonard Bernstein's pulse and stomach gurgling if I listened closely enough. Over time it is sharp and harsh. So, results so far, ASIO is now even less listenable.
But the good, is that the DSP with direct sound is even better than before because I am getting more resolution, but in a musical listenable way. I may stop here since I really doubt that I can get the system to sound any better. It now sounds detailed by a good increment (eg I can hear the overtones of the cello better)in addition to being solid, and very 3d, as it was with the DSP. On the other hand, it is so hard as an obsessive audiophile to leave it alone.
Follow Ups:
DBB wrote:
. . . before the changes, I found many recordings too detailed and sometimes fatiguing.
Thanks for your interesting report. I'm pleased you're happy with what you've done and think your approach is a good one - take from cMP2 what suits you and the way you like to listen.
That said, I'd argue that, if detail in a recording is "fatiguing" (and I know exactly what you mean), it's a sure sign that reproduction is not (or in your case was not) optimal.
Detail in music is not inherently fatiguing - we don't normally ask a string quartet to sit behind a curtain in case we get tired (though I've been minded to ask for a hat if sitting near the front when a tenor gets carried away).
At most venues, the nearer the band you get to sit, the more you have to pay. It can be tiring because it's too loud but that's a different matter. Venues such as London's Wigmore Hall are treasured by music lovers for their ability to make every nuance audible even to those sitting at the back, next to the sides, behind the dame with the big hat, etc.
However, I agree with you about spurious detail spoiling some recordings. Alas, when you improve your reproduction, it does seems that some favourites lose a little of their appeal.
But others take their place. The number of CDs that have "come alive" for me since I built a decent PC-audio system is very gratifying.
Dave
I like the hall analogy. I'm in NYC. Our two main orchestral concert halls are Avery Fisher Hall and Carnegie Hall. Avery Fisher depending on the seat is usually crystal clear but sometimes lacks warmth and resonance, and can even be harsh. Carnegie Hall is clear with no lack of detail, but balanced and warm. It seems to have kind of dark glow. I'm looking for the Carnegie Hall experience.I feel I'm getting the best sound and access to my music with PC audio. For me the biggest single jump in quality was the use of DSP with the Lynx card. DSP is not exactly in fashion here. I rather have too much detail and look for ways of adjusting it, than too little. So the Lynx card works for me. I would be in a bigger hurry to try cMP if it wasn't a potential impediment to using JRiver conveniently.
Edits: 04/07/09
Hey Dbb,
I think seger is right about things being non optimal and that detail is not a bad thing when things are optimal.
What bios changes have you done? COuld you underclock? Are things fanless?
Also, what kind of power are you feeding the computer? DId you get the granite supply and are you using it to power the hdd. I hope you are using sata.
Recently I lost the magic mostly because I moved things around and when I connected it back up I had the granite supply connected to a cheap computer powerstrip. Before I had it into my counterpoint pac5. It was the "dirty" psu so I thought it didnt matter. Well I was wrong, and putting it back into the pac5 really helped.
My hunch is that the drives or power or both are hurting things, and fans too if you have them. So try doing as much of the hardware things too.
And I was thinking a bit about the gui. If you could sort by composer, conductor, and album, would that be enough?
I only did the three Windows system changes, which I thought would be very modest. I don't think I'll start with hardware changes anytime soon. I ended up swapping some cable around, I removed the silver cable from the position directly into the amp and replaced it with a good copper cable which was in my pre amp. The sound is now back closer to where I want it. I did some A/B testing against vinyl. It is close, but still lacks that last bit of solidity and weight of vinyl. I thing there is probably a slight net improvement from the windows changes, but I might have come full circle. Have you a/b'd your system against vinyl? I think that is the ultimate test.
Sorting by composer, conductor, and album would not work that well. I rarely listen to music by album. I could use album as a misnomer for work, but that still would not be enough. I need composer, work, performing artists, and genre. I also like a category for source, ie LP, and sample rate. A further problem, is even if cPlay had all these custom features tomorrow, it would probably take a year's work in the evening to get it set up.
DBB,
I have a similar set-up as yours and I intend to use J River, at least at the beginnig. Can you please tell me which Windows mods you made?
Thanks
I did just a few changes that are described at page 27. I replied more specifically to your email.
Hey Dave,
If you can get the granites installed which is pretty easy and cheap at $20 a pop, I think that would help you a lot with the sound, especially if you can get the usb connections powered this way too.
Even if you chose not to do that, getting the drives powered off the granites is a plug and play affair.
JRiver with WASAPI in Vista would probably be your cup of tea - with as many customisations a la cics as you can do short of cMP. It will only improve the musicality of the sound, not make it harsher. Also, you will not lose any of the functionality you need, and the system will be lighter. You won't need more than 1GB RAM. Here's the post about setting up Vista I mentioned in an earlier post: Vista Setup
Hello seger:Thanks for the link. How close would you say this is to the sound of vinyl, if you have had a chance to compare. The reason I ask is because the Lynx card works so well for me that I feel I am already close to my ideal. Its that last 2% of vinyl-like weight, ease, and smoothness that I would like to squeeze out from digital.
David
Edits: 04/13/09
I'm not able to make a fair comparison. That last 2% you speak of may be in the realm of personal taste, so only you can find it by experimenting. What you gain with pc audio is the freedom from the noise of vinyl as grooves and needles suffer wear and tear, and the convenience of having all your music a click or two away, but you are probably right that the naturalness and richness of vinyl is the ideal digital audio aims for. My suggestion was based on your post - I don't think you'll be happy with the limitations of the cMP or cPlay UI, and I thought the JRiver wasapi presentation might suit you as it is quite rich and full. And if the DSP you spoke of works in Vista, you could play with that as well. Try some different things, and let us know what you hear.
It would be interesting to see how the detail is presented.
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