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What PC audio set up can outperform High end Emmlabs, DCS system?

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What PC audio set up can outperform High end Emmlabs, DCS system?

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makes me smile - SeVeReD 08:56:57 08/07/07 (0)
I've only heard the DCS system at shows... twice now. What I have going on in my dedicated, completely different setup at home beats what I've heard at shows. Is this a good comparison? NO, of course not... but it makes me smile that we're even discussing my ~$2000. FE (laptop,player,usb-dac) against this too far out of reach for me $wise DCS stuff. carry on.
Acer Aspire 9500 laptop Pentium 1.73GHz w/ 2 gigs ram, Vista Premium 32 bit, WAV/CUE files on Hard Drives via firewire, XXHighEnd ver. .9H Player; Stello 100 USB-DAC nos
@fmak, clarify your conclusions from src.inifinitewave.ca - cics 18:59:32 08/04/07 (5)
Above image for dCS 972 spectrum, DC-22.05kHz, 1kHz at -0.1dBFS, 24-bit word length, downsampled from 96kHz to 44.1kHz (linear frequency scale, 22.5dB/vertical div.).

Infinitewave measures down-sampling performance from 96kHz to 44.1kHz. It’s spectral analysis has an excellent dynamic range of 180db!

@fmak,

Your comments:

“PC systems are problematic as you and I have found (so have the Promoters)and nobody quite knows what is going out. The fact that some actually promote 96k from 44.1 as being superior in audio terms just shows the underlying problem of using an src which itself is problematic. http://src.infinitewave.ca/.”

And later to audioengr: “asrc not good; should use integer multiples. Maths difficult especially real time.
src has plenty of images compared to good programs such as Audition. Thus
intermod.”

refers.

Secret Rabbit Code (version 1.03) has following specifications (http://www.mega-nerd.com/SRC/index.html): The current best converter provides a signal-to-noise ratio of 97dB with -3dB passband extending from DC to 96% of the theoretical best bandwidth for a given pair of input and output sample rates. Measurements from infinitewave concur with these specs albeit using version 0.1.2 (Best Sinc). Both sweep and 1kHz test tone spectral measurements show no content over -97db. The purple lines/scatter shown correspond to below -97db (colors are mapped to db levels). The so called ‘plenty of images’ and inter-modulation distortion you’re referring to would be noise below this level.

Now your choice of dCS 972 is no different to these measurements. After all it’s a PC dressed differently but nonetheless software driven with its own flavor of SRC. The spectral measurement as in image above (1kHz at -0.1dBFS, 24-bit word length, downsampled from 96kHz to 44.1kHz) suggests a SNR performance of 118db (see link below). Likewise, had Inifinitewave done similar measurements on this SRC, one would likewise see purple/blue lines and scatter as that for other SRCs.

So, can you explain how PC based systems are ‘problematic’ whilst your own choice of dCS 972 is in fact a PC with similar resulting measurements. It also outputs noise around -118db which would be very visible when graphed in infinitewave’s very impressive 180db dynamic range (either color coding frequency sweep or standard spectral graphs).
- Stereophile measurement of dcs972, see figure 7 (Open in New Window)
- RE: @fmak, clarify your conclusions from src.inifinitewave.ca - fmak 01:47:42 08/06/07 (4)
  I shall try to explain. What you are referring to is the band limited signal to noise or signal to harmonics levels and not related to the hf images that I have been referring to. If you look at the link that I posted, you will see that src has significant iamges over the place. Post filtering is important to sonics and really one doesn't know what is going on in a given PC system. There are no measurements in the public domain on usb to spdif or usb converter products being talked about here. Goto diyhi.org on measurements made on usb bridghes and the technical issues surrrounding them and you will see what I mean on hardware and software issues. Also, if you look at PC forums, you will see that usbs are not by any means robust as spdifs. At least there are some published bt Stereophile on SPDIF sound cards that one can use as a performance reference.
  
  What is the point in going from:
  
  PCI to USB
  USB to SPDIF and throwing away PCI to spdif systems and not making sure that the outputted SPDIF stream is correct and high quality.???
  - RE: @fmak, clarify your conclusions from src.inifinitewave.ca - cics 07:23:18 08/07/07 (1)
    Infinitewave’s frequency sweep graph for SRC (Best Sinc).
    
    You raise 2 issues:
    
    1. SRC (as in Secret Rabbit Code) results in HF images all over the place. These HF images are beyond aliasing artifacts arising from bandlimit reduction (96k to 44.1k).
    
    2. Quality and measurement of USB based interfaces.
    
    Looking at SRC (Best Sinc) version, I don't see those HF images you’re referring to (see above image - those purple lines are below -97db). (I have by reply post added scale graph depicting colors to db levels). High noise levels are however visible for the low quality SRC algorithms (Linear and ZOH) which must be NOT be used and nor are they recommended! SRC's website suggests they be used ONLY when CPU is a bottleneck. Best Sinc noise levels are below -97db whether this be aliasing artifacts or the HF images you mention.
    
    More facts need to be addressed on src's (as in Sample Rate Converters). This also applies to SRC (note case sensitivity).
    
    a. Algorithms based on real numbers (32 & 64 bit float) are superior to integer only ones. 16 bit allows for 65536 signal variations whilst 24 bit allows for ~16.8m (256 times more). Rounding errors arising from integer algorithms will result in less accurate signal amplitudes. You definitely want to avoid this. SRC, R8Brain, Audition etc use float. Integer multiples of original sampling (as in 44.1 -> 88.2 vs 96) is not a factor ito quality when using correct interpolation - see point c.
    
    b. Upsampling from 44.1k to 96k has no added noise in the original frequency band. That is, noise is not added up to 22.05kHz whilst above this, noise could occur whose extent is determined by design of the src. Because these artifacts are ultrasonic and at very low levels (e.g. for SRC this would be below -97db) they're not a major concern.
    
    c. Whilst much has been said about 'Noise', more needs to said about the 'Signal'. Audition and other srcs don't provide details on interpolation algorithms employed with some using hybrid techniques. SRC uses a technique known as Bandlimited interpolation. This is based on sound mathematical principles and theorems which recreate the analogue waveform from a given set of bandlimited samples. This is most CRITICAL as other techniques are likely to deviate from the analogue waveform resulting in audible interpolation errors. Of course this is a game of trade-offs involving computational cost, signal accuracy and SNR. With SRC, we have superior signal accuracy at acceptable SNR and can be easily computed using latest generation processors. A poorer choice would entail weak signal quality against excellent SNR. Ideal would be a src using Bandlimited interpolation with better SNR but without undue processing overheads.
    
    On USB based devices, this in itself is not a basis to relegate pc based solutions as problematic. Other interfaces are available (PCI, PCIe, Ethernet, Firewire). USB, Ethernet and Firewire are by design bit-perfect. From an audio perspective this is powerful as upsampled data is dispatched to an outboard device or DAC perfectly. This outboard device adds a quality clock... Like any new development, there will be challenges in its implementation but will be superior to SPDIF which is a lossy interface as it offers minimal error correction capabilities.
    - colors to db levels (src.inifinitewave.ca) - cics 07:27:24 08/07/07 (0)
      .
  - Fred, will have to disagree again, same as below! - Gordon Rankin 06:46:21 08/06/07 (1)
    Fred,
    
    Look no offense but I don't think this is a credible statement because you have never really got PC audio to work.
    
    You built 3 pc's and complained that none of them even worked. The EMU0404 USB is simple and yet you are pulling your hair out. The lynx card problems listed below and others.
    
    I can point to probably 20 threads on three forums that you have never really got any of this to work.
    
    I think you want this too work but I don't really think you have ever really experienced this type of system really excell as some of the others have.
    
    ~~~~~~
    
    Also with regards to what I and others posted on DiyHifi is all based on the PCM27xx series parts. No one said these parts were end all or the best available. They are only the easiest to use.
    
    As for bit perfect... I say you bypass the kmixer and your set. As I stated on Diyhifi, here and head-fi. Consistency on the PC platform is really a problem mainly due to lack of consistent encoding and decoding of music files under Windows.
    
    I think this is were we need to look at the most on the Windows side of the equation.
    
    Thanks
    Gordon
    J. Gordon Rankin
    - RE: Fred, will have to disagree again, same as below! - fmak 07:58:05 08/06/07 (0)
      Gordon
      
      You are beginning more and more to distort the contents of what I said in different posts, stringing them together journalist style.
      
      Just because I built 3 PC and am not satisfied with the best sound cards has nothing to do with the topic in question, or need to go over to usb only; a format that you yourself find flawed.
      
      Watch it, or I may well start to reciprocate.
      
      OK you have 7 or 8 PCs, and all you can do is to tell people to go MAC. Well I don't want to, nor do many others.
      
      Fred
It's called Pyramix and Sonoma! - Bruce B 17:38:24 08/04/07 (3)
I've got a Pyramix DSD Mastering PC going through an EMM Labs ADC8/DAC8. It's the best you can get! Period!

Regards,
Bruce
- does that play sacd? - kgiessler 21:33:11 08/04/07 (2)
  can you put a sacd in and play it?
  
  does it record in dsd? or record in PCM and then use software to convert to DSD?
  
  I want my next comp to be compatible with all hi-rez formats, and SACD is the only one I haven't got figured out yet.
  - RE: does that play sacd? - Bruce B 22:49:17 08/04/07 (1)
    Yes, it records and plays back DSD... 8 channels of it!
    To get DSD off of SACD, I put the disc in my CDSD, output through ST optical into my EMM Labs DAC, out the BNC connection into my Pyramix rig. I can make compilation discs with the ripped DSD information! SWEET!!
    
    Regards,
    Bruce
    - Which BNC connection? - zarir 02:37:51 08/06/07 (0)
      Hi Bruce
      
      I own a Dac6e signature and the only BNC connection I can find relates to the clocking function.
      
      BTW how much did your Pyramix rig cost ?
      
      Regards
      Zarir
RE: What PC audio set up can outperform High end Emmlabs, DCS system? - Mercman 05:51:51 08/04/07 (0)
Fmak has a number of valid points concerning USB DACS. Mine is limited to 16/44.1. It cannot play SACD or DVD-A. He feels the triode tube output design is grossly colored. There are other things Fred mentioned, but I am an end user and not an engineer. What matters to me is the "enjoyment factor" I get from a product.

Prior to my purchase of the Wavelength Cosecant, I was on an endless quest for satisfying digital reproduction. I spent thousands of dollars for equipment that was ultimately unsatisfying. I spent thousands of dollars to modify the equipment with superclocks, black gate caps, etc, but was never satisfied over the long term.

The Wavelength Cosecant changed my musical life. I found that I was now enjoying listening to digital recordings. My SACD and DVD-As were relegated to a box in the closet.

The Crimson DAC replaced my Cosecant. It has truly been a revelation in what is possible in the reproduction of digital sound. There is no more fatigue factor or unconscious desire to end the listening session.

I have listened extensively to DCS components, and find them as unmusical as most of the other CD products out there. Theory supports them, but the sound stinks.

Gordon Rankin obviously is not the only one who makes wonderful equipment. I would love to hear Steve Nugent's Spoiler in my system or the Memory Player. Unfortunately, these products are not easy to audition.

Fred, I appreciate your technical background. I would be more impressed with your opinions if you had some actual first hand experience with high end USB DACS. Naturally, the cost factor is prohibitive if you don't have friends that can bring these products to your home for auditioning. But until you have first hand experience with these products, your opinions will simply enter the realm of the theoretical. Your arguments will not be appreciated. I have heard the arguments why products like DCS are the products to own, but real life experience negates the theory.

After all the theory and discussion, the only thing that matters is the sound and the enjoyment of the listening experience.

Steve
RE: What PC audio set up can outperform High end Emmlabs, DCS system? - Vincent VRS 17:47:40 08/03/07 (0)
There are only a few highend Hard disk playback systems out there. Pick one! Read the threads and find out.
Empirical Audio beat dCS and Meridian in my system - Brucemck2 16:36:01 08/03/07 (0)
I've owned the full dCS stack and Meridian 800 series. The USB Turbo2 from Empirical Audio was every bit as good as either of those, and has for all intents and purposes replaced both in my system.
RE: What PC audio set up can outperform High end Emmlabs, DCS system? - triodesteve 15:32:52 08/03/07 (0)
I don't know if this is any help and I admit that I haven't heard any of the benchmarks that you've listed above. I took a chance on the TwinDac Plus usb dac when I read about a guy who sold his dcs stack because he liked the TwinDac a lot more. I have not regretted my purchase, but I didn't have EMM or dcs, just a Sony 777sacd player.

Steve
RE: What PC audio set up can outperform High end Emmlabs, DCS system? - Vincent VRS 09:27:34 08/03/07 (16)
Fmak,

As Gordon has stated, you have tried to get PC audio to sound exceptional, but have failed at it. Until you hear what is possible out there, the Nova Physics Memory Player, Wavelength Audio USB DAC's, Emperical Audio solutions, Zero one player and others, then the only thing that you can say is that you have not been able to get PC audio to sound as good as your DCS gear. Trust me, There are customers out there that have sold their high priced CD players, Transports and DAC'S because they have heard what is possible. I applaud you in your efforts to have at least attempted to try this new technology, but there are pieces of the puzzle that U are missing to get it to sound exceptional.

Vincent
- RE: What PC audio set up can outperform High end Emmlabs, DCS system? - fmak 15:47:53 08/03/07 (15)
  Another PC audio vendor!
  - umm... wait a second... let's not get carried away - danny kaey 19:05:16 08/03/07 (0)
    Vince is a stand up guy and has been helpful around these fine boards here many, many times.
  - RE: What PC audio set up can outperform High end Emmlabs, DCS system? - Vincent VRS 17:51:47 08/03/07 (0)
    You have never seen me self promote, as I believe the proof is in the listening!!
  - do you expect a transport vendor to recommend it? - kgiessler 17:24:43 08/03/07 (0)
    "We give up! Close the doors, I'm selling the inventory and buying a wavelength"
    
    The CDP and transport manufacturers push their products too. Just cause they got to push it first doesn't make them right.
  - RE: What PC audio set up can outperform High end Emmlabs, DCS system? - Dawnrazor 16:42:55 08/03/07 (11)
    Yeah Fred, just one of the ones who are trying to help you.
    
    But I guess you can just dismiss them all since they are manufacturers.
    
    I certainly don't dismiss Nelson Pass when he talks about class A, supersymetry, 2 gain stages and their advantages JUST BECAUSE HE DESIGNS THEM. I listened to his gear and concluded that he is on to something.
    
    Atleast go try some of their gear and report back.
    - RE: What PC audio set up can outperform High end Emmlabs, DCS system? - fmak 23:13:24 08/03/07 (10)
      Dawnrazor
      
      I respond to posts to try to help others. They can reject my take, but it is the Promoters who try to discredit what I post. It so happens that these are those who promote products without technical or measurement justifications. They a LOT of money and I don't have the resources or energy to try such products. I too can make euphonic 16/44.1 by putting a Triode stage or whatever after this; many can. But this does not mean that such a setup is so vastly superior that Inmates should be advised to throw away high end boxes.
      
      PC systems are problematic as you and I have found (so have the Promoters)and nobody quite knows what is going out. The fact that some actually promote 96k from 44.1 as being superior in audio terms just shows the underlying problem of using an src which itself is problematic. http://src.infinitewave.ca/.
      - Wow, Secret Rabbit Code looks awful in those plots - Slider 10:40:31 08/04/07 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: What PC audio set up can outperform High end Emmlabs, DCS system? posted by fmak on August 03, 2007 at 23:13:24
        
        Not sure what the scale is though. What is iZotope? Anyone tried it? Some of those plots look very good.
        EDIT: Oh, I see that cics posted the color scale above so it isn't nearly as bad as first thought.
        
        Edits: 08/07/07
      - SRC - audioengr 10:22:50 08/04/07 (5)
        
        In Reply to: RE: What PC audio set up can outperform High end Emmlabs, DCS system? posted by fmak on August 03, 2007 at 23:13:24
        
        "The fact that some actually promote 96k from 44.1 as being superior in audio terms just shows the underlying problem of using an src which itself is problematic. http://src.infinitewave.ca/."
        
        I dont see anything here that indicates that it's problematic. What do you mean?
        
        I've listened to a half-dozen different hardware upsamplers in various DAC's and none of them compare to the old SRC with Foobar 0.8.3 IMO.
        
        RE: SRC - fmak 14:11:37 08/04/07 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: SRC posted by audioengr on August 04, 2007 at 10:22:50
        
        asrc not good; should use integer multiples. Maths difficult especially real time.
        
        src has plenty of images compared to good programs such as Audition. Thus
        intermod.
        
        RE: SRC - audioengr 14:48:07 08/04/07 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: SRC posted by fmak on August 04, 2007 at 14:11:37
        
        I'm planning to try Audition.
        
        With Foobar 0.8.3 and SRC anyway, 24/96 sounds better to me than 24/88.2
        
        Steve N.
        
        RE: SRC - SashaV 18:46:11 08/04/07 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: SRC posted by audioengr on August 04, 2007 at 14:48:07
        
        I am not sure if it can be generalized, my preference (not with SRC SW but other upsamplers) was 24/88.2 over 24/94.
        Based on my limited experience, I would say I prefer synchronous oversampling over asynchronous.
        Also, this is very subjective, for example, an audiophile friend of mine and I converged over time to almost identical systems, we have the same speakers and amplification, but we disagree on digital source. He is in love with sound from his Esoteric player while I cannot stand it. Yet we both agree that his (our) system sounds the best with source being analog tape.
        And if you look at previous thread on Lynx L22 sound card, after I set WaveLab with ASIO, I found digital out of PC/Lynx better than my optical transport in many aspects. It has some "analog" qualities. My present optical transport is nothing special of course, yet I found it vastly superior over SB3 at the time I was playing with it, while some consider SB3 sonic heaven.
        So I will pursue further PC/Lynx as transport, by isolating sound card in same sort of a cage, will try to find a way to remove switching power supply from PC and replace it with something linear regulated, and will make my own break-out cables out of sound card.
        
        Cant be generalized IMO - audioengr 22:10:23 08/04/07 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: SRC posted by SashaV on August 04, 2007 at 18:46:11
        
        The result will be different with each upsampler and on the computer even each player and plugin for ASIO and KS etc.. will have an effect. Each system is different with it's own set of weaknesses too.
        
        I don't think the terms sync and async apply to software - Slider 19:11:59 08/04/07 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: SRC posted by SashaV on August 04, 2007 at 18:46:11
        
        There are no separate clock domains in software upsampling, are there? How can it be asynchronous? And with hardware upsamplers, at least the devices typically labeled as upsamplers in the audio world, unless there is some bypass mode they are always asynchronous since there are two clock domains which will never be exact integer multiples.
      - RE: What PC audio set up can outperform High end Emmlabs, DCS system? - Dawnrazor 23:38:21 08/03/07 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: What PC audio set up can outperform High end Emmlabs, DCS system? posted by fmak on August 03, 2007 at 23:13:24
        
        Fred,
        
        I am all for debating this and appreciate you taking everyone to task. I just wish i could make some sense of what you are saying.
        
        On one hand you dismiss a product because it won't do more than 16/44 or because a triode is added. But then you deride those who stress upsampling.
        
        What is the deal??
        
        I find it hard to believe that someone who has all that topflight gear and scopes to measure everything doesn't have the resources to try these products.
        
        Personally I haven't found PC audio problematic. Time consuming YES, a challenge to get right some days, yes, but not problematic. Infact, my system improved dramatically since i ditched my trans/dac.
        
        Obviously you have issues with the 3 companies that hang around here on this forum. Why not try a company that doesn't. Zero One audio makes purpose built PC products that maybe more in line with your design philosophies (no usb, upsampling, no switching PSU, etc.) and has gotten some awesome press.
        
        Maybe you could give their approach a try.
        
        RE: What PC audio set up can outperform High end Emmlabs, DCS system? - fmak 04:15:56 08/04/07 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: What PC audio set up can outperform High end Emmlabs, DCS system? posted by Dawnrazor on August 03, 2007 at 23:38:21
        
        Let me explain. I will try products but not on the basis that someone says
        :
        xxx is vastly superior to yyy and so give up yyy. Goto diyhif.org, look up usb pc audio, and see the technical issues afflicting the usb interface (ie jitter and artefacts). You will also see that the proponents themselves accept the software and hardware problems affecting it. I have repeated some of these here; yet those who admit to them elsewhere will not do so here.
        
        I do not find it justified to spend thousands and more on time in a format that is questionable at present.
        
        As I said, I have responded to a post which asks for opinions; I gave mine and do not expect to be derided by those with a vested interest without cause, just that I have not tried their products.
        
        As for the Triode remark. It is a fact that 16/44.1 non OS has massive technical problems. Triode amplifiers also colour the sound with loads of harmonics. It is a case that two wrongs don't make a right. I have no objection to anyone wanting them; just don't tell me that I should try them when I have and don't like the results.
        
        For the record, I have no problems with the manufacturers who post here, as long as they don't try to tell everyone that my observations are invalid, based on their own empirical observations that are no more valid than mine.
        
        RE: What PC audio set up can outperform High end Emmlabs, DCS system? - Dawnrazor 13:05:23 08/04/07 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: What PC audio set up can outperform High end Emmlabs, DCS system? posted by fmak on August 04, 2007 at 04:15:56
        
        Ok, you have cleared up some things.
        
        But i still don't get your take on upsampling.
        
        Also, did you see the Sasha V post below. He had the same criticisms of the Lynx digital out that you seem to have, yet it looks like he got it configured right and has changed his tune.
        
        Why not try the Zero One stuff?
RE: What PC audio set up can outperform High end Emmlabs, DCS system? - Mercman 08:39:32 08/03/07 (1)
I have found that the Wavelength Crimson Silver USB DAC driven by a MAC (OSX) outperforms the components mentioned.
With all due respect to Famk, I also feel that Gordon's choice of 71A triodes is simply amazing.
I lack technical and instruments, but I have my Johnson.

Edits: 08/03/07
- RE: Mr. Johnson.... - alan m. kafton 11:22:48 08/03/07 (0)
  I lack technical and instruments, but I have my Johnson.
  
  Ha!! That's really the best test, isn't it?
RSee the thread just down th page. nt - David Shapiro 06:23:14 08/03/07 (0)
nt
RE: What PC audio set up can outperform High end Emmlabs, DCS system? - fmak 06:17:46 08/03/07 (13)
None, I spent 3 yrs developing computer audio and comparing with dCS system. PC audio does not match a well set up transport system. Doesn't matter what they claim, and I am technical with instruments.
- In your experience - audioengr 10:49:51 08/03/07 (4)
  In your experience, you may have not gotten the exceptional results that many of us have with computer audio. I dont read that you tried MP, Empirical Audio gear, Wavelength gear, Benchmark DAC-1 USB, or Bel Canto DAC-3.
  
  I get a lot of high-end DAC's in for modding, including Dodson 218 and Bremen #1 as well as CEC, Vecteur and ML #37 transports, so I know what they all sound like, before and after modding. I have also had extensive listening sessions with Reimyo, EMM labs and other $15+ DAC's that I have not modded.
  
  A lot of my customers have sold the above DAC's and Transports and others on Audiogon when they get my computer audio solutions and DAC's in their systems.
  
  My experience and my customers experience with computer audio is much broader than yours. Many of my customers have tried the UD-10, the Transit, the Edirol converters, different PCI cards, the M-Audio Audiophile USB, the Squeezebox, the Sonos and the Olive before they finally came to me.
  
  The point is, you can try a lot of stuff out there that does not sound very good and is tricky to get working and conclude that computer audio is inferior to CD player/transport, or you can try one of the above, who I consider the current sound-quality leaders in this industry.
  
  Steve N.
  - RE: In your experience-Yes, I want hirez, not 16 bit 44.1/48k - fmak 14:52:10 08/03/07 (3)
    I don't see that I need to try yours, or another others by way of the usb interface that half works, especially when you make them.
    
    Some of your recommendations for PC setup are not in agreement with what I have found. I don't use some of the US equipment you mention simply because of the outrageous mark ups in Europe and the ridiculous delivery charges. Many of the transformers used for 60 Hz equipment also buzz like hell in 50Hz land.
    
    It is interesting that the greatest proponents of usb audio are those who make them, and a handful of their followers.
    
    I do not object to those in praise of usb audio. Only those who object or try to diminish what I have found, or my views.
    - RE: In your experience-Yes, I want hirez, not 16 bit 44.1/48k - zarir 17:37:23 08/03/07 (2)
      Fmak
      
      It is clear that you (like I) have tried many different ways to get the very best sound out of the current music formats. I have also gone down the path of getting a purpose built computer (fanless case , a Zalman tnn 500af) using a Lynx card(Lynxtwo C) which I had slaved to my EMMLABS Dac6e signature version. This did not quite match up to the Emmlab transport Dac combo for CD playback. I then tried the empirical turbo offramp 2 as the interface between my computer and the Dac6e. I am using the SRC upsampler which converts the 16/44.1 to 24/96. With this combination I am currently getting superior 16/44.1 playback from my PC cw the EMM transport/Dac6e combo. Sacd playback however is clearly superior to the sound of 16/44.1.
      I live in Australia where our electrical specs are similar to those in Europe.
      I hope this helps
      - RE: In your experience-Yes, I want hirez, not 16 bit 44.1/48k - fmak 23:03:12 08/03/07 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: In your experience-Yes, I want hirez, not 16 bit 44.1/48k posted by zarir on August 03, 2007 at 17:37:23
        
        Exactly: I have come to the conclusion that src is inferior to good upsampling boxes
        
        Clarification - zarir 01:07:34 08/05/07 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: In your experience-Yes, I want hirez, not 16 bit 44.1/48k posted by fmak on August 03, 2007 at 23:03:12
        
        Fmak
        
        I have tried playback with and without the SRC and prefer the SRC to be active. As you may know, the EMMLabs Dac6e further upsamples this 24/96 signal to 2Fs. So maybe the benefits are not limited to boxes.
        
        From my perspective, CD playback is now hard drive based. It is only when I have a well remastered Sacd that I want to hear that I switch on my EMMLabs CDSD signature edition player. I am going to try recording my sacd's in 24/96 to hear how close I can get to that magical sacd sound .
- would have to disagree - Gordon Rankin 08:48:10 08/03/07 (0)
  Fred,
  
  Look no offense but I don't think this is a credible statement because you have never really got PC audio to work.
  
  You built 3 pc's and complained that none of them even worked. The EMU0404 USB is simple and yet you are pulling your hair out. The lynx card problems listed below and others.
  
  I can point to probably 20 threads on three forums that you have never really got any of this to work.
  
  I think you want this too work but I don't really think you have ever really experienced this type of system really excell as some of the others have.
  
  Thanks, ready for a proding...
  Gordon
  J. Gordon Rankin
- RE: What PC audio set up can outperform High end Emmlabs, DCS system? - Mercman 06:56:22 08/03/07 (6)
  Fmak,
  Please share with us what speakers and amps you are using in your reference system.
  Thank you
  
  Edits: 08/03/07
  - RE: What PC audio set up can outperform High end Emmlabs, DCS system? - fmak 07:28:11 08/03/07 (5)
    Sonus Faber, Accuphase A50 and others, separate digital and analog regenerators, Placette Attenuator, Big Ben, UA2192 Class A capacitorless dac, dCS972/954, upsampling to 2 or 4 fs, Lynx AES16 card in system powered by regulated 12V linear supply to PC, RME968 sound card. Large (30m2) listening area. All units in true balanced mode. All cables carefully chosen and digital transmission waveforms monitored. Kimber, i2Digital etc etc. All music uncompressed and carefully ripped
    
    No colouration from non oversampling, transformer coupling, or valves. Yes, I can find euphonic sound by using these. No, I choose to use low distortion components which produces sound as good as vinyl in depth, breadth, height but no noise. Yes I have vinyl too.
    
    No usb audio components due to their problems with hirez and drivers in main system. Yes these things can sound nice but does not come up to grade.
    - RE: What PC audio set up can outperform High end Emmlabs, DCS system? - audioengr 10:52:45 08/03/07 (3)
      What USB converters/DAC's have you tried?
      
      What networked converters have you tried?
      - RE: What PC audio set up can outperform High end Emmlabs, DCS system? - fmak 12:52:47 08/03/07 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: What PC audio set up can outperform High end Emmlabs, DCS system? posted by audioengr on August 03, 2007 at 10:52:45
        
        No networked dacs such as transporter; not interested in flooding the place with RF. I maintain as much silence as possible (RF and mains) when I listen and so I switch off modems and computers etc. Don't want twisted pair trailing the place unless I can build in.
        
        usb, you know my requirement for hirez. Tried various including the emu I am playing with. One of the problems with computers is that there is always some acoustic noise and vibration and much RF (I can detect this with instrument).
        
        Sonos - audioengr 22:37:53 08/03/07 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: What PC audio set up can outperform High end Emmlabs, DCS system? posted by fmak on August 03, 2007 at 12:52:47
        
        The Sonos uses wired Ethernet for the first zone player - no RF. The computer with the music on it can be anywhere on the same LAN. Try out the demo at sonos.com
        
        Very impressive.
        
        RE: What PC audio set up can outperform High end Emmlabs, DCS system? - kgiessler 17:17:16 08/03/07 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: What PC audio set up can outperform High end Emmlabs, DCS system? posted by fmak on August 03, 2007 at 12:52:47
        
        You should probably try a firewire solution with a break out box then.
        
        You'd be able to multiplex in hi-rez (not that you want to).
    - RE: What PC audio set up can outperform High end Emmlabs, DCS system? - Mercman 07:31:01 08/03/07 (0)
      Looks impressive Fred.

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