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Which USB DAC?

76.16.75.246

Any experiences with USB DACs? I plan to audition a Wavelength Audio Cosecant if my dealer ever gets his ass in gear. I've just been reading about the Empirical Audio DACs (Modified Benchmark and the Spoiler) and I'm not sure that they are ready for prime time. I would certainly appreciate any input from people with experience.

Thanks,
David Shapiro

Follow Ups:

RE: Which USB DAC? - Scrim 11:13:26 08/28/07 (0)
I second the nod towards the PS Audio Digital Link III. Though I haven't listened to the Benchmark before, the PS Audio has an upgraded Burr-Brown/Texas Instruments chip than the older (3 years old?) Benchmark DAC.

It has USB input, and automatically locks in when your computer is turned on.

I have been listening to my Digital Link III for 9 months now, and am extremely happy.
RE: Which USB DAC? - cpuaudio 17:45:27 06/09/07 (0)
If you want the most flexiblity and highest sound quality, you should go with a seperate PC audio interface and DAC. In the USB area, the EMU 0404USB is fairly inexpensive and can output 24/96 to the SPDIF. You can then match this up with your favorite DAC. I prefer the tube DAC sound and am using a very inexpensive Lite 68 (upgraded Siemens CCA tubes), until APL has revised their 5910ci (this unit can be ordered with a special SPDIF input) with their new tube output boards.

If you want the best PC audio you need to go beyond USB and go with a true Pro Audio solution. I have had good success so far with the RME Fireface (using the firewire interface), and the EMU 1616M with it's own CardBUS (pcmica type 2) interface. The down side of using the USB has been well documented in this forum.

The Firewire achieves a standardized higher output (esp the 800), and less clocking issues. Both of the above mentioned solutions can output 24/192 or 24/176 to the SPDIF. The Lite DAC and the APL will allow that high resolution input with no trouble.

The difference in sound, at especially 24/176, is dramatic. One note - you will need the highest performing PC to handle output at this resolution (at least an Intel core 2 duo T7400 laptop of Core 3 Duo 6400 desktop). I prefer the laptop route for the low fan noise and convenience, although low noise desktop solutions are available. Much more powerful processors are on their way from AMD and Intel by years end.

I have done alot of experimentation recording my LP collection at the various resolutions and 24/176 seem superior to all other levels - including 24/192. A big improvement over 24/96. The ADC converters in the EMU are the best AKM made (AK5394 ADC). The sound quality is amazing! Very hard to tell the difference from the actual LP and the digital recording. In foobar using SRC you can upsample 16/44 to 24/176 for a signifcant sound improvement, very close to DVDA or SACD.

The other advantage to having a seperate Pro audio interface and DAC - the need for constantly improving drivers. Most Pro Audio companies have teams updating and improving there drivers (EMU just released VISTA beta versions for the 1616M).

This approach - using seperate pro audio/ DAC solutions give you flexiblity in the future, by allowing you to change interface without having to replace the DAC. You get the added benefit of the ADC solution to recording vinyl if you chose. The intergrated boxes won't give you that feature.

As for clocking issues, both of these boxes give you the option of clocking internally or clocking to the DAC. The EMU uses a internal crystal clock with very low jitter. The RME uses and even more elaborate solution called Steady Clock. Here is a very interesting link if yuou want to read more.
http://www.rme-audio.com/english/techinfo/steadyclock.htm

I have a fairly high end system and the results I'm getting now from my PC are close to exceeding anything I have heard digitally, my analogue sound still rules, but the differences have narrowed dramatically. With addition of the new APL DAC/player and it's new SPDIF technology I'm hoping to exceed vinyl.

Hope this helps!
RE: Which USB DAC? - truthseekerprime 15:07:04 06/09/07 (1)
If I were going this route, I'd look seriously at the new USB version of the Benchmark DAC1:

http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/dac1/

Jitter can be a bit issue with USB connections, but these guys seem to have nailed it.
- RE: Which USB DAC? - Lynn 06:32:04 06/14/07 (0)
  I bought a Benchmark USB a month or so ago, and it sounds great. Works perfectly under both XP and Vista.
Spoiler comments - Thomas James 10:12:01 05/28/07 (0)
I put my money on Steve's Spoiler DAC. I earlier had Steve mod a DEQX for me by, among other things, adding his USB/I2S interface. Modified as such, the DEQX bettered my Emm Labs SACD gear, which I sold. I then decided to purchase his Spoiler DAC, which is the best digital I've heard by a considerable margin---very refined, clear sound.
RE: Which USB DAC? - Mercman 05:16:22 05/27/07 (7)
David,

You have owned an Esoteric X0-1 and Basis Debut V vacuum. The Cosecant is not for you. If you really want to "move up" from where you have been, consider the Wavelength Crimson.

I also have a Basis Debut V Vacuum with a Graham Phantom arm and Koetsu Jade Platinum cartridge. I find myself listening to the Crimson more than the Basis. I think that says it all. As for your former Esoteric X0-1, the Crimson will be an "eye opening" experience.

Steve Nugent builds a Spoiler USB DAC. I would love to hear this component and have a "shoot out" on my system. Perhaps I'll link up with another audiophile in So CA who owns a Spoiler.

Steve
- RE: Which USB DAC? - David Shapiro 06:03:36 05/27/07 (6)
  Hi Steve,
  The dealer can only get hold of a Cosecant. If he likes it, I plan to get the Crimson.
  
  David
  - If you're considering the Crimson... - jusbe 07:32:33 05/27/07 (5)
    ...or something else in that price range, I'd definitely recommend hearing the AMR CD-77 with its USB input. I'd love to hear the Crimson but I suspect its a contender. The AMR is something else, though and uses a classic chip from the same family - the TDA1541. It's about US$8,500, I think. It has USB input too - the 'right kind', it would seem.
    
    Image from 6moons. For review and more pictures see link.
    
    Big J.
    - 6mooons review of the Abbingdon Music Research CD-77. (Open in New Window)
    - RE: If you're considering the Crimson... - Cycles2 11:49:17 07/01/07 (2)
      The AMR CD-77's USB DAC is not in the same league as it's CD transport/DAC. We A-B'd a Wavelength Cosecant USB Dac and all agreed the performance order from top to lowest was:
      1. AMR CD-77 CD / Transport
      2. Wavelength USB DAC
      3. AMR CD-77 USB DAC
      
      I suspect the Wavelength Crimson might compete very well against the AMR CD-77 CD transport / DAC.
      - RE: If you're considering the Crimson... - hd a ogue 15:10:35 07/02/07 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: If you're considering the Crimson... posted by Cycles2 on July 01, 2007 at 11:49:17
        
        Cycles2,
        
        How close or far apart where those #1,#2 and #3 performances? Was the Wavelength way ahead of the AMR DAC? Was the CD transport way ahead of both dacs?
        
        How broken in was the AMR and Wavelength? Thanks!!
        
        RE: If you're considering the Crimson... - Cycles2 04:07:11 08/17/07 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: If you're considering the Crimson... posted by hd a ogue on July 02, 2007 at 15:10:35
        
        Sorry for the delay in responding to you about how close/far apart the Cosecant was to the AMR CD-77, but as I mentioned earlier the A-B review of the AMR CD-77 and the Cosecant USB DAC resulted in this unofficial lineup from highest to lowest by 2 of us.
        
        1. AMR CD-77 CD transport
        2. Wavelength USB DAC
        3. AMR CD-77 USB DAC
        
        The Cosecant was broken in and I belive the AMR CD-77 was broken in as I believe's it's the infamous unit that is well travelled and still had some quirks that needed to be addressed such as a mechanical clicking noise from the top loading disk drawer mechanism.
        
        It's hard to quantify how much better the AMR's CD transport was over the Cosecant, but I would summarize by saying that if you're more into playing CDs and consider the computer server as a convenience, then the AMR CD-77 is a good choice. If you're seeking the ultimate USB DAC as you want to primarrilly use a computer server as your main digital source, then pursue the Cosecant or better yet get a Crimson which I suspect may compete well against AMR CD-77's transport.
    - RE: If you're considering the Crimson... - David Shapiro 08:00:49 05/27/07 (1)
      Funny you should mention the AMR. I just spoke yesterday to the Chicago area rep about when one would be available for demo. I specifically asked him about the USB implmentation, which he said is native USB, not a conversion to S?PDIF, which I assume to be IS2, although I will confirm that.
      David
      
      Edits: 05/27/07
      - RE: If you're considering the Crimson... - jusbe 11:23:47 05/27/07 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: If you're considering the Crimson... posted by David Shapiro on May 27, 2007 at 08:00:49
        
        I don't think its IS2. I think its a more elegant solution than that with custom written drivers, and so on, and a more direct/less convoluted connection to the DAC. The USB connection is isosynchronous and though I'm no PC expert, it seems that in the land of USB audio this might actually be a 'good thing'. I think AMR have an explanation somewhere on their site but I'm more interested in reading a 3rd party review of this AMR interface in particular.
        
        The player sounds phenomenal. If you get a chance, listen to it in an AMR system too. I've been thinking carefully about getting one.
        
        Big J.
Speaking of... - kgiessler 21:56:22 05/26/07 (3)
What about this one?

Anybody ever hear, or hear of, this?
- Paradisea (Open in New Window)
- Listening to one right now. Terrific sounding Dac! - Gmood1 22:25:11 05/26/07 (2)
  The 100% positive feedback on Ebay with over 500 transactions says it all.
  - RE: Listening to one right now. Terrific sounding Dac! - MGH 23:36:47 05/28/07 (1)
    Hi, are you using the USB option?
    - RE: Listening to one right now. Terrific sounding Dac! - Gmood1 15:48:17 05/29/07 (0)
      Yes I use this option most of the time.
      
      Little brother (31) having some fun!
      Go BADGERS!!!
RE: Which USB DAC? - jeffrey_t 21:45:01 05/26/07 (2)
Before you spend crazy money, please give the PS Audio Digital Link 3 a try. You will be amazed! Spend the money you save on CD's and high rez downloads.
- RE: Which USB DAC? - chubaka 17:31:27 06/05/07 (1)
  Dave, are you a professional pilot?
  - RE: Which USB DAC? - skids929@hotmail.com 18:53:44 07/23/07 (0)
    Wavelength Audio over Empirical without question..For two reasons, all the DACs have tubed outputs and have an incrediblely organic and pretty sound. Second reason, is Steve Nugent has no problem crap talking his competitors. Which in my audition phone calls to him with questions about his products, was a complete turn off. Then you speak with Gordon, and realize what service and a cool dude really is all about.
    
    Wavelength is very special stuff, you won't be sorry you gave it a listen. It is the best thing that has ever happened to me in HiFi. Bold statement, yes..But very true.

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