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24.7.101.62
It seems that with win amp its asio plug in, the volume control is non-functional. Is this correct?I thought it might be the big buffer setting, but I waited for at least 2 minutes, and currently have been playing a song in mute for the the last 4-5 minutes. It sounds really good.
Any ideas?
Follow Ups:
Hi Dawnrazor:I have played with two different ASIO capable cards so far:
M-Audio Revolution 7.1
Creative X-fi X-treme musicBoth have mixers that allow level control of individual channels as well as the entire mix *in ASIO mode*.
No level controls in the player or windows, but this is what you want. The fact that level controls are available in ASIO mode does NOT mean kmixer is in use. But it does mean you are using "bit attenuation" as Christine is pointing out.
If you are tri-amping and want to try something neat (but a bit blasphemous) use a *good quality* 6.1 channel receiver as a preamp. If you put most 6.1 channel receivers in "external multichannel input mode" you can get 6 channels in and 6 preamp channels OUT using a single level control. If you're talking a high-end Marantz, Dennon or Onkyo unit, the quality of the preamp section might surprise you.
If you can borrow an HT receiver from a friend, you can try this for free! :o)
Cheers,
Presto
P,While this will accomplish the task at hand: make Dawnrazor stop tossing his bits, you really think that running a signal from balanced outs to single ended input through a reciever's pre-amp section to a single ended input on an amp that was run balanced before will yeild better results?
I find that very hard to swallow. See long long time ago, I used a HK ht amp as a pre to a Carver 2 channel amp. Then I wised up and ditched HT, and replaced the HK with a Carver pre. Then the Carver was replaced with a CJ, which was replaced by a cdp running direct (true, that had an analog volume contol I think)
Maybe HT receivers have improved, but I would be very surprised if i got better results.
I am not dismissing it out of hand and it is a good idea, but it does seem like a long shot.
WHich one would you suggest?
Dawnrazor:I was unaware your amps had balanced inputs. Yes, I agree - converting a balanced signal chain to unbalanced for volume control is a step in the wrong direction. Now you're back to either stepped attenuation or THREE pre-amps that have balanced I/O. The latter is not cheap, and ganging them with one remote may not be foolproof.
I'm almost in the same boat as you really. I want to do three-way active, but I have not decided on amps yet - so balanced may or may not be a requirement for me. Balanced *is* nice...
There's this unit: http://www.redesignsaudio.com/SCPA1.html
But it's not cheap and I don't think it uses a remote.
So, right now I'm still stuck in "hobby mode" with the 6-channel HT solution, and looking at how to get an audiophile version is making me rethink things quite a bit.
The best way I can think of to tri-amp while using a PC as a source and a single pre-amp is to either go:
a) active analog crossovers
b) passive crossovers (PLXO before amps)
c) passive crossovers (conventional - after amps)I honestly like c) the best. a) is only good if you have an analog active crossover that you think does not kill your sound. The plus with *A* is that normal level controls BEFORE the crossover are still possible. b) is only good for 1st or MAYBE 2nd order and requires sufficient preamp gain to compensate for the losses of the filters. c) is probably the best idea. here is why.
Passive crossovers after the amps still provide electrical isolation between the crossover poles. If you want "time correct" crossovers, you can still do forward-reverse processing to the entire signal using the Thuneau Arbitrator. But now you only have ONLY ONE stereo signal coming out of the PC. This means you CAN use one "good" preamp, and you CAN stay balanced throughout the signal chain.
Is going with multiple passive networks on multiple amps another "audiophile compromise"? Heck no! In fact, most audiophiles around here, imho, if given a choice between DSP active, external digital or analog active, or PLXO and good old passive networks would probably prefer the latter!
Sure you lose the flexibility of running "any" combination of speakers with a single crossover but so what? How many combinations do we have? Design and build a passive crossover set for each combination and call it a day.
I know it's frustrating - especially if you've been working with DSP or digital active crossovers and you really LIKE them. It's even worse if you like steep-slope linear phase FIR filters which can't be done in the passive realm. But if you wound up using IIR filters that DO have a passive equivalent, I say scrap the DSP or digital crossover. Sacrifice the flexibility. Passive crossovers take time and skill to build - but not that much money! Besides, if you're triamping in an audiophile environment, you should know how to build passive crossover anyhow! The upshot is you can still use forward-reverse processing (Thuneau Arbitrator) to do phase correction. Don't uninstall the Allocator yet either... in addition to a real-time crossover, it can also be a very powerful design tool for developing passive equivalent networks!! ;)
There are three main ways I think one could go about this and still get audiophile results:
1) PC > balanced stereo out > balanced pre > 3 amps w/ balanced inputs > passive networks
1a) unbalanced version of 1)
2) PC > digital out > balanced DAC > balanced pre > 3 amps w/ balanced inputs > passive networks
2a) unbalanced version of 2)
3) PC > digital out / sync in > DAC digital in / sync out > balanced pre > 3 amps w/ balanced inputs > passive networks
3a) unbalanced version of 3)
4) PC > USB unbalanced out > unbalanced pre > 3 unbalanced amps > passive networks
You might lean towards 1). I really want to try the 3) approach! :o)
Just food for thought...
Cheers,
Presto
Or, use a really good multi-channel preamp.Or, use a single high quality passive attenuator, and split the output three ways (may have to watch out for impedance though)?
Hey C,Or, use a single high quality passive attenuator, and split the output three ways (may have to watch out for impedance though)?
How are you pulling that off? WOuldn't I need 3 attenuators since there are 3 different crossod over signals coming out of the PC??
Well, you could have several passive attenuators ganged together. That's essentially what a passive m-ch preamp does.And there are balanced m-ch preamps around - the EMM is an obvious candidate if you haven't checked it out before.
C,I guess you really do believe that that money spent on getting the full bits by buying a pre would get better sound vs. putting toward better amps or speakers. $5k us could by some really good speakers or amps.
I'll start by seeing if I can borrow a friends receiver, but I am really skeptical. But willing to see.
Thanks.
I'm probably the wrong person to ask, since I have 3 preamps in my system :-) (it's a long story, and yes i do use all 3, not at the same time though).But consider this - you said you are worried about single ended vs balanced. Well, you lose a maximum of 3-6 dynamic range going from balanced to single ended.
You lose a LOT more than that doing digital attenuation
It boils down to which compromise you are willing to make.
I am generally not a fan of connecting sources directly to power amps. Too much risk of an impedance mismatch.
WInamp forum is saying that the volume is not supposed to work. One post directs me to the plug-ins writer....Otochan. Who seems to allow the Foobar ASIO to work with volume control.So I know it can be done.
Could it be some silly setting??
... therefore it was difficult to provide any meaningful response.Are you saying the volume does not work but you want it to work?
Or the volume works and you don't want it to work?
Or are you asking how to control ASIO volume (outside of WinAmp)?
???
Sorry for not being clear.The first one.
I would like to control the volume with winamp.
The slider moves and the mute is pressed, but it doesn't do anything to the sound.
So, is there away to get it to work?
It does sound really nice.
The ability to change volume control is implemented by the output plugin. I don't think otachan's ASIO outplug plugin implement volume control (since this is not part of the ASIO spec).Why do you want to change the volume anyway? You do realise that volume controls on a PC work by digitally attenuating the signal - hence you lose resolution? It would seem counterproductive to go through the trouble of using ASIO in order to preserve the bits, and then mangle them by using a volume control.
It's better to control the volume on the analog output (ie. using a preamp).
Hi Christine,The ability to change volume control is implemented by the output plugin. I don't think otachan's ASIO outplug plugin implement volume control (since this is not part of the ASIO spec).
The volume seems to work in Foobar with similiar plugins. I guess it is possible I don't have it set up right, but I don't really think that is the case.
Why do you want to change the volume anyway? You do realise that volume controls on a PC work by digitally attenuating the signal - hence you lose resolution? It would seem counterproductive to go through the trouble of using ASIO in order to preserve the bits, and then mangle them by using a volume control.
It's better to control the volume on the analog output (ie. using a preamp).
While I tend to agree that is the case in theory, and am aware of the bit tossing, my situation is different than most:
1. In a tri-amped system, I would have to get 3 identical pre-amps and hope that the remote would flash them all at the same time. That is a bunch of scratch to throw at things.
2. Everything is upconverted to 32 bits. Doesn't that mean that the bits that are being thrown away don't really matter much? Wadia claims 14 bit resolution when turned all the way down, and that is based on only 22bit up conversion.
3. I have never had good experiences with pre-amps. I had what i thought was a decent one (CJ pv-10) and compared it vs running my then cdp (Dynaco CDV-2)direct. It was close, but the Dynaco direct just sounded better (less cables and connections in the way), and selling the CJ meant a better amp or speaker could be had.
Even if 1-3 weren't true some how, I still think that biamping the main speakers and removing the passive crossovers would result in an overall better sounding system (even with throwing away some bits) than running extra cable and connections through a pre into an amp and through the passives on the speakers (loosing resolution ALL THE TIME rather than just at lower volumes).
NOt to mention that in practice I and others who have listened can't hear any decrease in resolution other than the volume going down.
I know that YMMV and probably does, but these are trade offs I don't mind making as I think the pros definately outweigh the cons.
So, I would love it if Winamp would adjust the volume.
ANd, in this link, a poster says that it did but that was on a much earlier version, and I can't seem to find a similiar setting.
http://forums.winamp.com/showthread.php?s=9f29485f2ca87b67c29febd30c25bc9f&threadid=224874&highlight=asio+volume+control
Thanks for helping, I very much appreciate it!
Don't use the ASIO output. Use DirectSound or WaveOut output plugins instead, and you will be able to use the volume control.The whole point of using ASIO in the first place is to preserve the bits (with minimal latency). If you don't intend to preserve the bits, why use ASIO?
*** The volume seems to work in Foobar with similiar plugins. ***
Foobar2000 is a different application than WinAmp. Just because something works in one doesn't mean it will work in the other. Volume changing is not something that's built into the ASIO spec.
Of course it is possible to implement a WinAmp ASIO output plug in that supported a volume control, but otachan hasn't done this (I suspect because it's completely against the philosophy of using ASIO in the first place). You could try asking him.
*** Everything is upconverted to 32 bits. ***
Actually, no. If you had an optimal ASIO configuration, it should be preserving the bits, so there should be no upconversion. Remember: the whole point of ASIO is to preserve the bits. Otachan's plug in for example can open the ASIO device in multiple modes, matching the bits in the input signal.
*** ANd, in this link, a poster says that it did but that was on a much earlier version, and I can't seem to find a similiar setting. ***
On some devices (with a hardware mixer), it is possible for the WinAmp volume control (which controls the Windows mixer) to affect ASIO (indirectly). This is because the actual volume control is implemented on the hardware mixer.
Again, just because something works on one set of devices does not mean it will work for your situation.
that this is somewhat of a non issue.Right now I am testing software such as win amp on a non audio pc, but on the big rig, I can use the lynx volume control if needed...even if the thought makes the ASIO designers shiver.
It is weird, because I do have asio set up in Foobar, and the lynx mixer reports 32 bits. If I read right, it should say 16. What is going on?
Finally on your 1212, is there a similiar volume control as in the lynx mixer?
I may be building a more budget audio PC for a friend, and the 1212 is probably the card I will choose if I can control the volume from it.
Thanks.
*** even if the thought makes the ASIO designers shiver ***LOL!
I don't think it will make them shiver, but you have to remember ASIO was never designed as a general purpose interface.
ASIO was originally designed by Steinberg to connect their digital audio workstation software (Cubase/Nuendo) to audio hardware. Because all the mixing is done by the DAW, what was needed was a direct connection between the DAW and the audio hardware that bypasses the Windows audio stack (to preserve bits and minimize latency).
I think PC audiophiles latched onto ASIO because it was also a convenient way for a music player app to bypass kmixer.
*** It is weird, because I do have asio set up in Foobar, and the lynx mixer reports 32 bits. ***
It's probably the foobar2000 asio implementation opening the ASIO device in 32 bits. In other words, the foobar2000 asio output plugin is doing the 16-bit to 32-bit conversion (which is a bit naughty).
otachan used to have a foobar2000 ASIO plugin (version 0.8 only). Unfortunately, it's no longer available for download.
*** Finally on your 1212, is there a similiar volume control as in the lynx mixer? ***
You can control volume using PatchMix. Unfortunately, as far as I know, there is no way of automating PatchMix (ie. control PatchMix functions from another program).
Actually, I would probably advise against using the E-MU for consumer applications. It is very pro-audio centric (quality and functionality above usability).
The PatchMix interface is rather daunting and has a steep learning curve - it closely resembles a pro audio mixer console. You may want to take this into account if your friend is not very PC literate. For example, just to change sample rates requires you to define and load a customized PatchMix session.
It's very difficult to change sample rates on the E-MU hardware because unlike the Lynx the E-MU uses dedicated clocks for each sample rate, so to change from 44.1 to 96 kHz for example effectively requires the DSP and DAC to be "rebooted" to a different clock.
The benefit of dedicated clocks (as opposed to the Lynx for example which uses clock synthesis) is much lower jitter, hence better sound quality.
At least the E-MU does allow sample rate changes via software. The other equipment I have that also uses dedicated clocks (an Edirol StudioCanvas) requires the device to be turned off and on again to change sample rates!
(which is a bit naughty).That was funny.
Thanks for the info on the Emu. This guy is pretty pc literate, so I shouldn't burden him with a steep learning curve.
.
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