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In Reply to: RE: microRendu review & snapshots of its internals (the guts) - pics posted by AbeCollins on August 20, 2016 at 22:58:40
Seems like you fall in love with someone.
Sonore will appreciate your feedback.By looking at the boards I'd say most of the "cost" go into
SW design, maintenance and marketing.
Don't believe that such a board is much more expensive -
if produced in China - then a PI.
To be honest. If your MAC mini is able to compete soundwise,
I'd rather go for that one.Why should I buy such an expensive black-box "gadget", which is probably outdated sooner as you'd imagine?
As you know, SW maintenance, is usually a key issue for manufacturers.
That, e.g. all Android users (except Nexus users) had to learn the hard way. Do you expect it to be any different with such a device?A MAC and even a Raspberry PI or any other $50 ARM board give me ten times
more flexibility at a much lower cost.
Your MAC can even be used for other purposes as well( That's what I do with my NUC). That'll make it really cheap as transport.I'd love to compare my $100 RPI + $100 iPurifier2 setup against a MicroRendu! Just to see where I am at.
Bottom line. I'd never buy that device. That's for sure.
And the nice thing is, you actually pretty much confirmed (MAC vs. Microrendu) my position. Thx for that.Enjoy.
PS: IMO such a device shouldn't cost more then 99$-129$.
Edits: 08/21/16Follow Ups:
What you don't see by looking at the board is the intense work that went into the design of that unit. That work took 4 US based engineers about 2 years. We had one US based engineer going through the 3000 page manual of the processor looking for ways to improve things. This is expensive work. The microRendu is our flagship product and we do offer a lower cost solution with the Sonicorbiter SE so you have options.
BTW You should know that part of our R$D we tested all kinds of inexpensive ARM boards. Unfortunately, most of them do not have the features we require to meet our goals even in the lower cost offering. For example: The Pi does not utilize a USB hub and this caused issues with high sample rate playback via USB in our tests.
Anyway, I appreciate that this product is not for you and that there are alternatives. However, your opinion of what the mciroRendu should cost are not based on the realty of the situation.
Jesus:
I want to thank you for all you have done for the computer audio community. Not only the micro Rendu and other products, but your free apps, one of which has allowed me to populate my server with over 1000 SACDs all split and tagged like CDs. :)
For record all the pseudo engineers, "IT Pros", and other wanna bees that populate this forum are not fit to shine your shoes.
Thanks again.
P.S. I believe the SonicOrbiter SE is the least expensive Roon Endpoint on the market, unless I am mistaken. Cheers.
Your welcome. It takes all kinds to make the world go round. I think it is the least expensive Roon Ready endpoint with USB output and I think it was the first.
Sonore's own Sonicorbiter SE is a cheaper solution.
Although a lot of clever engineering went into the microRendu, especially on the carrier board, is it accurate to say that the microRendu contains one of the Freescale ARM Cortex-A9 dual-core processor "system on a chip" (SoC) that resides on the SolidRun "system on a module" (SoM), running a variant of the Linux operating system booted from the removable microSD card?
Edits: 08/29/16
That is a mouthful so I'm calling it a SOM for simplicity.
Yes, System on a Module (SoM). We had a debate about that in another forum. Thanks.
Edits: 08/29/16
What a bunch of self serving blather.Unless I missed it, you have never heard the Sonore microRendu, and you never will.
Designing such an excellent product is so above your pay grade it is comical.
There are those that do, and those are armchair engineers on message boards. You and your ilk are the black clouds floating around who can judge products they have no experience with. Not.
Edits: 08/22/16
Since you claim to own the excellent microRendu, Aurender W20, and the Antipodes DX Reference Server, we'd sure love to get your sonic comparison of each..... or any one of them on it's own merit.
To be honest. If your MAC mini is able to compete soundwise, I'd rather go for that one.
No argument here. You get a good amount of Mac Mini for the price of a µRendu & a decent power supply. But we're talking 'audiophile' goodies where even the 'bargains' are expensive. In the manufacturers' defense the sales volumes are tiny in this niche within a niche.
A MAC and even a Raspberry PI or any other $50 ARM board give me ten times more flexibility at a much lower cost. Your MAC can even be used for other purposes as well( That's what I do with my NUC). That'll make it really cheap as transport.
Again, no argument from me but some folks have been brainwashed into thinking that ALL commercially made streamers sound better than ALL DIY tweaked PCs, Macs, or DIY streamers.
The audiophile media and manufacturers have done their job well. There are no incentives for either camp to have PCs, Macs, or DIY streamers to come out on top. Can't advertise it, won't review it, can't sell it, so lets discredit it. Maybe that's a little extreme, almost conspiracy theorist, but not completely implausible. And of course there are those who want a turnkey appliance that just works out of the box. Nothing wrong with that.
I'd love to compare my $100 RPI + $100 iPurifier2 setup against a MicroRendu! Just to see where I am at.
Better yet, compare your DIY RPI setup to the new $1295 Bryston BDP-π. It uses the RPI board and Hifiberry Digi+. Theirs has a nice front panel driving a LCD screen but I wonder how it sounds.
Funny thing is, there's an 'expert' inmate here who claimed that RPI would never be good for audio applications. I guess Bryston didn't see that thread. ;-)
Bottom line. I'd never buy that device. That's for sure. And the nice thing is, you actually pretty much confirmed (MAC vs. Microrendu) my position. Thx for that.
I am completely happy with both the µRendu and the Mac Mini. A streamer NEEDS a computer (or NAS) anyway so now I have both. The Mini is back in the office, the µRendu is in the basement.
IMO such a device shouldn't cost more then 99$-129$.
That may be true if we're talking about hardware cost only. But some* streamer manufacturers actually optimize their hardware, develop software, have chassis / enclosure costs, facilities overhead, payroll, etc. As a DIYer you don't have those issues.
*Others more or less stuff a Raspberry Pi or NUC in a fancy box and call it a day.
HW cost > $100? Without a power supply??
No way.
They intend to play in the traditional audiophile audio league.
That's a strategic decision you take.
At 129$ you'd sell ten thousand(s) like Logitech did.
Or you sell a couple of hundred/thousands pieces at best at that high price.
I'm wondering if anybody seriously buys that $1400 power supply?
Ok. Ok. You never know. I've seen people spending 1500$ on software. ;)
We don't always do a good job at explaining our products, but you should know some of this. These units are assembled by hand in the USA from very high quality components. For example: The case is ~400 USD and is also custom made for Sonore in the USA. We only make this PS for reviews and for our most demanding customers who want the best. The PS is not our main product and we openly endorse lower cost options for those who can't afford it.
From engineer to engineer.
"These units are assembled by hand in the USA"
What is this supposed to mean!?!?
I can tell you.
That'll most probably mean that you don't have your cost under control.
Guess why Apple builds phones in China!?!?
You might have a chat with T. Loesch.
"The PS is not our main product"
That's absolute ridiculous. On one hand you strive for perfection, spent thousands of hours on reading manuals, and on the other hand you just let one of the most important parts of that solution alone!?!? You gotta be kidding me.
And then there is that 1400$ ??? PS. No words. I'm speachless.
A 300$ Squeezebox Touch should act as kind of role-model reference to you guys what can be done for the money. I mean the Touch had numerous more features a display, remote, power supply... But we can leave that alone for the time being.
And don't forget these squeeze-guys even wrote their own software from scratch! I don't really know exactly: Are you guys using squeezelite as
player engine?? Freeware??
A hint.
As far as I remember the Squeeze Touch folks hired an engineer who didn't have to spent 3000h on reading manuals. This guy knew what he was doing from day 1.
Good luck with your business. All the best.
Thorsten? Hey I like iFi products a lot. But some of his views are so off kilter it is comical.
Designing a streamer is above his pay grade, otherwise he would have done it by now. iFi has every other conceivable component on the market including a phono stage. So leave him out of it.
You are way out your league.
I'll be sure to take all that under advisement.
You are a better man than I...LOL. God bless you man.
HW cost > $100? Without a power supply??
Soundchekk: "No way.
They intend to play in the traditional audiophile audio league.
That's a strategic decision you take.
At 129$ you'd sell ten thousand(s) like Logitech did.
Or you sell a couple of hundred/thousands pieces at best at that high price.
I'm wondering if anybody seriously buys that $1400 power supply?
Ok. Ok. You never know. I've seen people spending 1500$ on software. ;)"
I agree with you Soundchekk. While I'm sure a number here will disagree with me that I do not believe (and have seen no evidence) that the hardware is capable of making the playback sound better through a good asynch USB DAC, I can appreciate the software and its flexibility.
Assuming there are no issues with software licensing (since a bunch of it is open source), I think if they sold a microSD card with the software for something like $100 would be reasonable for those who want to buy their own Raspberry Pi 2 or maybe Pi 3. Perhaps a whole package for $200 with Sonore Edition Pi hardware (with a nice metal case) and a reasonable SMPS power supply.
But at > $600 without power supply? Looking the way it does? Clearly they're aiming for the "audiophile audio league" and not to the sensible audiophile looking for actual value IMO.
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Archimago's Musings : A 'more objective' audiophile blog.
The microRendu replaces whatever streaming device you already use in the audio room. If my customers feel the unit is as good or better compared to whatever they were using before...I'm satisfied.
In regards to making our software available for the Pi...this is off the table for reasons already discussed above.
You comment about value is rather offensive. On Friday night I logged into a unit from remote and helped a customer setup JRiver. I removed his library, loaded it again, checked his settings, and confirmed playback. This was free support and nothing related to the microRendu. I think there is some inherent value there that you overlooked.
What a joke of a post. Birds of a feather....Another arm chair engineer who could not market a viable product if your life depended on it. So you lash out.
"Clearly they're aiming for the "audiophile audio league" and not to the sensible audiophile looking for actual value IMO"
This about a $640 product?????? How many Roon ready products do you know of that are less expensive. I know of one or two.
Hysterical. The Sonore design team, Jesus R, John Swensen, etc. could have you for breakfast. Like your friend, you are a knat they will flick away
EDITl The most comical part is you also have never heard or seen it.
Edits: 08/22/16
Speaking of "birds of a feather".
As if "The Sonore design team, Jesus R, John Swensen, etc." and other cults of personalities have any magical abilities to change the laws of physics and bend the truth of computer science in engineered products.
A wise man knows that he doesn't *need* to experience everything to be able to be skeptical when he has experience and tested other things and can extrapolate the knowledge.
If Jesus, John, etc... can come up with some engineering evidence, then it's worth a look. Swenson's commentary when he posted on the Regen last year was enough for anyone to read between the lines to question the principles of his beliefs. $640 isn't a big deal but why not spend money elsewhere - like on good music!?
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Archimago's Musings : A 'more objective' audiophile blog.
$640 isn't a big deal but why not spend money elsewhere - like on good music!?It all depends upon your objectives. I was skeptical too, as to how its sonic performance compares to my linear power supplied Touch.
Results? I find it offers a worthwhile level of improved transparency, low end response and low level dynamics. The Touch remains a great product, but mine is now used in the garage system.
Total investment closer to $1000 using HD-Plex linear supply.
Edits: 08/24/16
You don't even have the conviction back your rants. And you are a helluva bore.
Design and market your own player. Don't be envious of a company that sold 1000 units in 3 months. Envy is not becoming.
Selling 1000 units in 3 month. Great argument !!!!Proving what!?!? 1000 audiophile nuts with big wallets running after the next gadget?
I know John Svensson quite well btw.
He's IMO not the most innovative guy. He's pretty much a quality guy.
He pretty much just takes what's there or already known stuff and
applies a little tweaking.
Basically he built a high quality USB hub and now he built a quality Raspberry Pi or rather a Pi Zero.This all is no rocket science my friend. And for sure not worth 640$ - IMO.
Obviously John has quite convincing communication skills - at least towards his target group "the audiophiles" and "audiophile press". He even managed
to survive the rather tough squeezebox forum.
Don't forget John S as well as e.g Thorsten L. never really built up
their own long lasting businesses as far as I've been able to follow that.
It's one thing to be an excellent engineer and another to run your own business.On the other hand, try to recall what G. Rankin - the Great - has been selling you audiophiles for years.
"Asynchronous USB Audio - The holy grail"Some of you/us had and most of you should have realized by now that "Asynchronous USB Audio" wasn't the holy grail of computer audio.
We had quite some arguments about that for quite a while during those days.
And I do think that that marketing myth even slowed down the evolution
of USB audio for quite some time.All these great engineers, bound to a business, are selling you, what's on the table. Nothing more and nothing less.
Most of them are even aware of the flaws and weaknesses.
Obviously business interests prevent from talking about these.
The (audiophile) industry sells and lives from "Progress" and not "Perfection".Even if some of us ask for perfection, they argue around it and sell you progress.
Which is fair enough!!! Many people are happy with that. It's a free market out there.
Enjoy.
PS: I'm not defending Archimago btw. I do have my problems with his methods and conclusions myself.
Edits: 08/23/16 08/23/16
This does not need to get personal. John is not here attacking anyone.
Hey Soundchekk.
Right. We have our disagreements but it's good that we can also agree to disagree on some things while other thoughts resonate. Life's complex.
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Archimago's Musings : A 'more objective' audiophile blog.
Isaak writes: "You don't even have the conviction back your rants. And you are a helluva bore.
Design and market your own player. Don't be envious of a company that sold 1000 units in 3 months. Envy is not becoming."
Gee what conviction are you looking for? Taking out a credit card and spending $640 dollars to compare every time Swenson claims something he never proves ? Anybody around here can do that.
It takes more conviction to not be swayed by every hyped product out there and truly stand by one's beliefs and call a spade a spade because it's *obvious*. It's like arguing with folks who have faith in all those Synergistic products!
Anyhow. I stand by the principle that what the uRendu does can be replicated by anyone with a Raspberry Pi and a little knowhow. The software looks good and intuitive. And if they sold just the software at a price like $100, I'd be happy to buy it as I stated above.
Trust me. I have no envy for Mr. Swenson et al. I know not how many they sell nor really care. Good luck to him for making money. It's a tough business and marketing is part of the game. Just interested in what is or what isn't...
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Archimago's Musings : A 'more objective' audiophile blog.
I'm not against people doing this. In addition, when we work on projects that are open source everyone in the open source community benefits from it. For example: All the native DSD work we have participated in is available to everyone including our hardware and software competition. Anyway, IMHO if you are going to do a DYI audio project you really are better off using a CuBox.
Just for the record the µRendu is not based on the Raspberry Pi. It is based on a SolidRun System on a Module (SoM) with a lot good engineering work on it's carrier board where all the audiophile related optimizations occur.
There might be others but the Bryston BD-Ï€ is the only audiophile streamer that I am aware of that uses the Raspberry Pi.
Right, thank Abe for the clarification. Also thank you for the pictures of the guts of the machine!IMO, the SolidRun SoM is nothing special and costs something like $65 at most (surely less than that in bulk with just 512M RAM). As for the carrier, good engineering perhaps but I have doubts that this leads to audible difference from say a reference implementation of USB, low power infrastructure, communications bus made with good quality parts. I assume this was probably an custom design with both Swenson & SolidRun's input to interface with their processor board?
I maintain that the best part of this whole system is the software... And wouldn't mind buying that separately.
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Archimago's Musings: A 'more objective' audiophile blog.
Edits: 08/23/16 08/23/16
Furthermore, let's not forget that Solid Run Clearfog is $90!
Have a look at its carrier board.
Bibo01,
Very COOL... SFP!
Bob
If ClearFog Base had a TDM header like the Pro version, it would be capable of I2S/DSD output too.
Try to imagine: a ClearFog + reclocker added internally to a DAC which would have SFP input.
That would be REALLY cool!!!
Nice Bibo.
BTW: Anyone here running an optical home network?
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Archimago's Musings : A 'more objective' audiophile blog.
I posted this in the AudioStream review of the micro.
Optical fiber to Ethernet isolators can result in connection issues. Some users have reported connection issues resulting from firmware deficiencies on the devices and compatibility issues between the various components from different manufacturers. As such, we don't generally advocate the use of these devices. However, I understand that need for some to go "to infinity and beyond." That said, we are sponsoring Ted Brady (CA member) to develop a how to guide related to the use of these devices. The how to guide will show recommended setups and suggest components that work together well. I'll post a link when the guide is complete.
Yes many people do. Read CA tons of posts of the subject
Thanks Bob,
Will look into that. Does seem to be a lot of expense for the infrastructure as well as the converters. Hopefully things have become more reasonably priced since I looked into this a couple years ago...
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Archimago's Musings : A 'more objective' audiophile blog.
Not costly at all, Ebay is a good source for surplus and generic fiber gear.
Do you pride your self on being out of touch? For someone who presents them selves as an "authority", you leave a lot to be desired.Total expense for optical isolation should be no more than $120..$200 if you go nuts.
You had egg on your face after being schooled on the microRendu, so this was a lame attempt to pivot. Try again.
Edits: 08/24/16
Thanks Bibo. ClearFog - nice looking board. USB3 and dual gigabit ethernet on board is interesting and novel in a little computer like this...
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Archimago's Musings : A 'more objective' audiophile blog.
It was $1000 for the software :-)
Ah yes.You've been one of the very very very few who received a 30% discount (later on?).
And that even without being an official Reviewer during those days.
Lucky you. It was just a grand. ;)
Edits: 08/23/16
Maybe, but Logitech must have dropped the Squeezebox product line for a reason. Maybe they weren't selling enough, or maybe they weren't profitable selling at those prices. Who knows.
Might be easier to sell fewer high-priced solutions to the niche audiophile market vs low priced to the masses.
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