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A number of people have questioned the $6500/unit price of this piece of equipment.
It certainly seems high, but i am hardly an expert. On the other hand, without questioning the reviewers judgement of its sound quality as opposed to a PC/Apple, it also seems like a good idea to use such a specialized device.
Do any knowledgeable people on this forum have a good idea what it would cost to replicate this in a generic form (with the same capabilities) and put it into production, and why?
Second, what is the maximum willing to pay by potential users for such a piece of equipment?
It has not been unusual, in the case of USB Dacs for example, to see prices drop as demand pics up and more mfrs. enter the market, even though mfrs are always searching for extra-special features to create a niche market and gain some pricing power (see it as a leg up) they lose in a truly competitive market.
Follow Ups:
Buy an inexpensive PC and re-configure it, or buy an inexpensive PC motherboard and build your own, if you know enough.
presently I'm just about finished with a build of my own, know very little about computers, gathered all the components separately, including OS, software, slimmed down the OS.....its only function is to deliver music files to be outputted via 192/24 optical(true glass cable) at first to a DAC now directly to my audio systems processor. Only a couple more things to tidy up, replacing the winlogon with minlogon, and improving the power supplies with separate more accurate and clean power. And right now its SQ is magnificent! Never had this quality from my source ever, very excited.
The day I know it all, is the day their putting dirt in my face
No one would seriously consider pricing a Rembrandt based on the cost of the canvas and the paints used to create it. Instead, the contribution of the artist, who simply used the canvas and paint as tools, is patent to any observer. People admire, and are willing to pay for, the artistry the artist brought to the final work. Only true artists, or indeed, masters, can get those kinds of results while using the common clay of canvas and paint.If you think audio prices are exorbitant, go try to buy a Rembrandt.
There perhaps lies the rub. Anyone can buy a canvas and spatter it with paint, but most would not call that "art," as no artistry is involved. Other, more ambitious folks, can put together an assembly line of canvas, paint, and numerous "artisans" who each contribute their bit of skill to creating a "painting." These can be very pleasing, but again are not truly art (and certainly don't sell for "art" prices) as little artistry was required to create them.
What about photography? Here the idea of canvas, paints, and artisans is left behind. Now we have engineers providing products so refined that on the one hand anyone can use them, but on the other hand only come to life when used by a true artist. Lots of folks have cameras. That doesn't make them Ansel Adams.
Let us not lose sight of the march of progress. Just as in the days of canvas and paint, it is now possible to use generic, off the shelf equipment and supplies to create art, but just as before, only true artists can do so.
Do these ideas carry through to the world of audio? Are there performers who can use generic, off the shelf, electrical components to create experiences so far beyond the ordinary we would call them "Art?" Certainly that appears to be the case on the production side of audio. Modern life is crammed with celebrities known only for their ability to perform music that engages millions of people, and all are using generic recording studios to do so.
Can we say the same about the reproduction of audio? I think not. The problem is that we are now confusing two concepts that exist at logically different levels: the use of electronics or software to create art, and electronics and software as art in and of themselves. We might as well debate whether Humphrey Bogart should have a lit cigarette in his mouth in a "no smoking" theater.
I'm not aware of any single "engineer" who has been acclaimed by millions of people based simply on his engineering or software skills to the point where he or she has been proclaimed an "artist."
This of course brings us back to the original question: should one pay "art" prices for something that is clearly not "art?" I'll leave that for the reader to decide. Beware of those resale market prices, though!
JE
"A difference which makes no difference is no difference at all." - William James
Edits: 06/22/16 06/22/16 06/22/16
Can we say the same about the reproduction of audio? I think not. The problem is that we are now confusing two concepts that exist at logically different levels: the use of electronics or software to create art, and electronics and software as art in and of themselves....
You may have missed the mark here, IMHO. No one in this forum that I know of is using electronics or software to create art or claiming electronics and software as art in and of themselves.
This of course brings us back to the original question: should one pay "art" prices for something that is clearly not "art?"
You know where I stand on that. Selling $6500 music PCs assembled with "paint by numbers" parts is a sham at art prices.
The Rembrandt lives in the packaging, marketing, and baffling.
nt
Cut-Throat
Here's a pro-built, guaranteed to do the job music server done the right way for a fraction of the cost of the server in question:
A properly configured NUC running a Roon/HQPlayer combo feeding a Sonore microRendu will no doubt at least challenge and prob surpass the "high priced spread" for SQ and usability at a fraction of the cost.
IMO these very high priced servers will go the way of the dinosaurs they already are.
IMO these very high priced servers will go the way of the dinosaurs they already are.
I'm not so sure about that. So long as auidophiles with deep pockets and shallow DIY skills exist in the market place, opportunistic manufacturers will fill the need. I'm not saying that's a bad thing. Just a thought.
Only $66 Grand for Wires! (The 3 meter Pair) -- But Oh 'The Soundstage'!Cut-Throat
Edits: 06/21/16
Wouldn't you love owning a business that lets you sell what are apparently burlap sacks with sleeves for thousands of dollars?
JE
"A difference which makes no difference is no difference at all." - William James
I think "ready mades" will always exist, though the field may become much more competitive thus making it difficult to command or even ask the kind of prices we've seen up to now. Of course there is "one born every minute" so,,,,,,
It all depends on the expertise and the amount of time spent on 'replication'. If this is commercial and you need to make a living out of it, then the costing probably comes to thousands.
IF you are doing it out of interest and are prepared to spend time, then you are talking about hundreds.
In the case of Playback Designs, the casework and power supplies probably cost a thousand to design, engineer, and build.
I just purchased a Node2. Integrated streamer and DAC. Can be connected to your network (if you have a NAS), or accept a USB HD or stick containing content. There is a dedicated control app, or I believe you can use a 3rd party app with some configuration. Can output via CoAx or Optical to an external DAC. Cost is $499. External USB HD about $100. Sounds quite good with internal DAC, and there are many external DACs available new or used at very attractive prices. Seems like one can create a streaming system around the Node for less than $600.
MicroRendu at $700 is the Best Streamer ever, it would seem that $6500 is complete waste of money.
Cut-Throat
and that's if you have H O R N S !
nothing if you have a $200000 system. Rather if you have a $20000 system and you insist on using an inferior and untested $100 power supply, then you just bear the consequence and never improve on SQ from your system.
It's not just high, it is insanely high.
Using Windows and related optimizations tools as well as JRMC and then on top of this highly questionable setup one of the cheapest NUCs as Abe is pointing out. Hmmh.
And that's not all.
The steep evolution in this area is still ongoing.
You probably can such a device write 100% off in 2 years from day of purchase. Do you really want to waste that much?
And then it is just a transport. It just delivers bits.
I'd love to compare my $100 transport based on Raspberry PI + iPower PS and free of charge Linux based audio distro against such a device.
(You don't need to be an engineer to get such a setup going)
The money you save, better use for a DAC that's pretty much immune on incoming distortions. The better the DAC the less impact will have the
transport! Perhaps Steven has a nice recommendation for you.
Enjoy.
and the Audiostream Syrah as well as my modded Mac Mini.
There are a couple schools of thought here. One is it's the hardware, stupid. The other would be that it's the software, stupid.
My Mac Mini is based somewhat on the 'it's the software' side with special attention to OS-X version and the running of player software inside specific memory partitions, etc. OK, no radios (wifi or BlueTooth) nor display outputs are active and the stock solid state drive is replaced by one thought to be more 'audiophile' worthy.
Streams CD rips from a Thunderbolt drive, yeah, spinning rust yet. :-(
But who cares, it sounds good. Significantly better than when stock and a LOT better than my MacBook Air, all other things being equal.
Would love to compare with a few hundred $$ solution and a few THOUSAND $$ solution just to here the difference.
And a uRendu would be nice to hear as well.
Been trying to convince the local audiophile society to arrange a proper 'shoot out' of streamers, etc. if we can get enough differing gear such that we could expect to hear a difference. We're finding that manufactures are more than happy to show up and show their gear they've had a half day to set up but not many invite/allow comparisons! ;-)
...of one of our inmates but nothing.
Said inmate says he owns the $700 microRendu (in a second system), $6000 Antipodes DX Reference Server, and $17,000 Aurender W20 (per his Asylum profile).
How does that giant killer microRendu stackup against the other two above?
I do believe the microRendu could be a fantastic value but I wonder if it needs a $16,000 power supply to compare favorably against the Aurender? ;-)
I guess we'll never know.
as I am seriously considering either an Antipodes DX or mRendu for a Roon compatible source to replace my Bryston BDP-2.I just want to be able to switch my system on and use a nice, robust, fine-sounding interface to play the tunes. Some people find joy in fiddling with systems; I just want to listen to music.
Antipodes claims that their direct Roon implementation (all on one server) is their best-sounding unit, but it locks you into their world. Then there is the mRendu which by most accounts is excellent, but would need an additional device for Roon Core... providing added flexibility (faffability?), but also added set-up, maintenance, fail points etc.
It would be helpful to know the sonic attributes of both units in the context of the same system.
Cheers,
91
"Confusion of goals and perfection of means seems to characterise our age." Albert Einstein
Edits: 06/20/16 06/20/16 06/21/16
Show up for RMAF and listen to all of them.
And more!
It's in your back yard!
.
You could use any low powered computer or even purchase one that doesn't use a fan for the CPU. You could then modify Windows 10 Pro with Fidelizer Pro and or Audiophile Optimizer. Purchase JRiver Media and JRemote. Purchase dbPoweramp if you want that. All of this can be done for much less than $6500, but you have to do a little work. It is also very easy to assemble your own computer.Computers are low profit items for the manufacturers. It can't be compared to what a small high end audio company builds.
Remember, the dealer takes a 40-50% of the retail price. Playback Designs also has to provide service after the sale. And on and on.
Here is an example of something a little more fancy:
Edits: 06/20/16 06/20/16
I know that, but how much of a computer do you need to read audio files from a hard disk (internal or external) and send the digital signal to an external Dac. Couldn't a prototype easily be designed from the bottom-up by an EE, using readily available parts? I suspect a non-switching power supply would be the biggest part of the cost. The I/O boards already exist. The rest is processing and controlling from a PC point of view. Surely this must not be rocket science.
It's not that hard. You will see other companies offering Server products that are more affordable as time goes on.
Unfortunately, as you pointed out in another post, the business model for audio companies is completely different from the business model for PCs. There is always going to be a markup of 3x or 4x the cost of commodity products if you expect a customized and supported product. This isn't specific to products catering to the high-end audio market, it applies equally well to any low volume market segment.
I would go a step further. If there isn't a large markup, then there would be little reason to believe that one is purchasing a product from a viable business. Consequently, if one is expecting support, one is likely to be sadly disappointed if one got a "bargain".
If one is not budget constrained and lacks time and/or computing skills, then it can make sense to spend one's money on these products. However, if one is budget constrained and still lacks the time/skills, then perhaps one would get better sound for the bucks spending it on a DAC, amplification, speakers, etc... It would be interesting to see reviews that explored these tradeoffs.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
There seems to be at least 2 approaches.
First are those with genuine hardware and software expertise, who try to arrive at a nicely made package costing $1000 to say $8000. A user is locked into a dedicated system for his/her purposes but will know that some kind of holistic approach has been taken by the propreiters. The Plyback Designs rig falls into this category.
Second, there are those who try to conduct software 'optimisation' of nuc type of computers in fairly cheaply made 'low end China type' cases. They seem to be selling these for $1000 to $2000. We are talking of the approach of using a Convent Garden PC or laptop, with 3 to 4 different kinds of OS modification audio suites to make the device 'sound good'. There will be little or no improvement on the hardware side except by way of claims of resonance control or whatever that cannot be challenged.
Most inmates with any kind of scientific or engineering education and training should know that, with the latter approach, there is no clarity of what is going on with the operating system or how this may be modfied. The user is unkikely to learn anything by using this approach and will be locked into a cycle of paying more for any 'software upgrades'.
In a free world the inmate chooses but unfortunately not all will be informed.!
First are those with genuine hardware and software expertise, who try to arrive at a nicely made package costing $1000 to say $8000. A user is locked into a dedicated system for his/her purposes but will know that some kind of holistic approach has been taken by the propreiters. The Plyback Designs rig falls into this category.I think you're very confused again.
The Playback Design Syrah Server at $6500 is based the "Convent Garden PC" NUC motherboard.... just like the Nimitra Server, with commodity Windows 10 Pro and some optimizations. Add River Media Center, and commonly available dBpoweramp to the Syrah. All for a mere $6500!
Not much different than the $1395 Nimitra Server you are talking about also based on your "Convent Garden PC", commodity Windows 10 Pro with some optimizations, but the former is $6500! The Nimitra is $1395.
You're doing your best to discredit Windows X because you have some 'history' with him. But anyone can see right through your misinformation.
Edits: 06/28/16
You have no idea what you are on about.
"If one is not budget constrained and lacks time and/or computing skills, then it can make sense to spend one's money on these products. However, if one is budget constrained and still lacks the time/skills, then perhaps one would get better sound for the bucks spending it on a DAC, amplification, speakers, etc... It would be interesting to see reviews that explored these tradeoffs."
That is a good point Tony. Definitely something for me to think about in my future reviews.
For the $1200, you get:Switching power supply
Just about the most tinny ssd, never mind what the computer testers say
ssd filter, which is not very good for SQ
One can do better for less. Or splash out on a STEC ssd or similar.
If one really wants to minimise the impact of background services and processess, forget networks, AV software and firewall, don't go on the web, disable all OS security not needed for audio, disable DEP, forget about fancy graphics and don't use an AV player that writes loads of registry entries and creates loads of cache folders, and above all learn how to slim OS oneself and how each step affects sound quality. This way there is no need to use non transparent software that is billed as universally 'optimising'.
And pay a lot more attention on how to separately power PC, SSDs and USB boards with genuinely good power supplioes..
Edits: 06/20/16
the configuration of the player and the streaming hardware are crucial elements and it is not just a case of buying this package or this device.
I forgot that aspect, because I buy CDs or download non-MP3 music files.
Thanks for mentioning it. I don't "get" streaming.
No, by streaming I mean the configuration of software and hardware that handles your music file inputs to the computer. For example, the buffer size of your XMOS interface can change SQ significantly. Yet many devices omit this functionality. Equally, your player may have a buffer length setting, and this affects SQ also.
I see little reason for paying for a streaming service, since all I need to do to get quality classical and light music is to connect to BBC Radio on my non-audio PC system which is web security equipped.
It really depends on what you want/need and what you consider "generic." Almost any Win/Linux PC or MacMini will, with JRiver or Roon, play almost any files to a USB DAC of your choice. Price will be well under $1000.
Whether this suits your needs/wants will depend on defining the details.
Please read the review posted here about the Syrah. It's not a PC. Functionality is very limited and specialized. It's only function is send a digital signal from various types of music files on a hard disk to a Dac.
First, the question was not whether the Syrah was a generic computer or not. It was whether one could configure something comparable from a generic computer.Second, fundamentally the Syrah a computer that has been constructed and configured for a specialized task. It is also true that one can construct a generic computer to perform the same task.
Whether one can construct something to equal the performance of the Syrah is a different question and the answer to that will depend on the users demands and capabilities.
Edits: 06/20/16
"It's not a PC. Functionality is very limited and specialized."Actually the heart of the Syrah Server is a low cost PC. Steve points this out in his review. DIY audio PC setups can also be functionally limited and specialized.
"The Syrah Server runs Windows 10 Pro that has been stripped and configured so it can only be used to play audio files and utilize network access. The hardware is based on the Intel NUC using a Celeron processor with 4GB of RAM and a 2TB hard drive. The Syrah can be ordered with an SSD at additional cost. The music software chosen by Playback Designs was the well-known JRiver Media Server."
- Intel NUC is a low cost low powered PC
- Windows 10 Pro is an operating system that runs on PCs
- JRiver Media Server is software that runs on PCsAn Intel NUC configured very similar to the one used inside the Syrah server costs $239 on Amazon. Of course you have to add the Windows 10 OS, JRiver Media Server, dBpoweramp, and some DIY optimizations that are not difficult.
The insides of the Syrah Server are based on the same components in this Intel NUC.
Celeron CPU, 4GB RAM, HDD or SSD. $239 on Amazon.
Edits: 06/20/16 06/20/16
I'm still looking for a "project". Preferably something I can use, instead of just make then shelve...
I've been trying to follow this. Not sure I am though. Is there any reason I couldn't build something using parts similar/same as what you show, and run some other (music file) serving SW?
I just want to send music files over a wired network, but would much prefer a simpler dedicated unit than the PCs I use now. Something I could just press the power button and it starts up quickly and does only that one thing. The alternative is to buy a basic laptop with Win10 and strip it down (not as easy as it sounds).
Yes, this is exactly the point. You can build your own very similar setup for a fraction of the cost. You can take a generic department store PC or a small inexpensive Intel NUC (it's just a smaller lower powered PC) and get excellent results with a little effort.- Load your own Windows 10 OS, or whatever flavor of Windows you prefer.
- Install JRiver Media Center, Roon, HQPlayer, or whatever flavor of player software or combination that you prefer.
- Manually tweak the OS to eliminate unnecessary processes, or run one of the automated optimizers.
- Play around with better power supplies but don't go crazy with overpriced units.You can setup an excellent PC based system for well under a thousand dollars, leaving you $5500 for a really pretty case if you like. If you decide that your DIY PC audio setup isn't for you, you can always repurpose it as a general purpose PC instead of a $6500 boat anchor or doorstop.
Edits: 06/20/16
Do I need Win10 *Pro*? It sure seems proportionally expensive compared to the rest of what's needed. And considering what we want to do with the completed device. [speaking of the USB version]
Edits: 06/21/16
Do I need Win10 *Pro*?
I'm thinking more generic and not so specific to duplicating the Syrah Server.
You can use whatever Windows you like, whatever flavor of Linux you like, and even Mac OS on a Mac if you like. There are some folks reporting stellar results with Windows Server 2012r2, others claiming Windows 8.1 to their liking, and others preferring Linux.
It's up to you and your personal preference with a DIY setup. No vendor 'lock-in' as with a a dedicated 'ready made' or 'audio appliance'.
Thanks Abe. I think this thread got part way Syrah clone and part way general-purpose server. Completely different aspects for the PC part. I got confused because the two aspects were intertwined in the threads, least the way I read them. Thanks for bearing with me.
Edits: 06/22/16
Yes, the microRendu seems like a good value. However, you still need a computer of some sort (or NAS) to store and 'serve' your music files if you wish to play your own music rather than stream from a service like Tidal, etc.
I see you caught the original version of my post... :)I decided to remove all that microRendu etc. stuff since I truly want to separate the "local" interface from the file source. I see no reason why combining them (like Syrah) should be *superior* to the way I prefer. IMO keep the majority of the computer "crap" far away from the audio gear and have a minimal (computer) interface at the DAC point.*
That way the hardware format of the file server barely matters, you would probably have a hard time buying anything new these days that couldn't do that job. I'd rather put real $$$ into something where computing cost/power actually gets used and is noticeable, like a gaming PC, rather than a dumb remote file server.
OTOH I did say I was looking for a "project". If all the Pi stuff (microRendu thread...) had been in stock at the dealer I selected (to minimize shipping), I would already be on that. There must be lots of popular Pi stuff going on in forums I don't know about, or people just changing to the latest version (newish I understand).
*Edit: I did have a (loaned) Bryston BDP-1 here for a while, and it is kind of like a Syrah in function, and it *was* better than any of my stuff. I put this down mostly to the DAC interface, definitely better than my own stuff.
Edits: 06/22/16 06/22/16
That way the hardware format of the file server barely matters .Exactly, but others will still insist on linear power supplies, solid-state disks, audiophile approved ethernet cables, Marigo tuning dots on various chips, isolation feet, built inside a Faraday cage, all buried under 10 feet of concrete and rebar for best possible performance. ;-)
Edits: 06/22/16
I will acknowledge that serving music files from a "clean"/minimal-install/etc. PC *seems* better, here. But only to a point, again here. Don't need to go to a whole lot of trouble before I reach the point of no difference.*IOW for others with better systems it may be worth going farther with cleaning up the file server as far as software goes. I don't see how the hardware will matter that much as long as it's "adequate". Poor SW choices can really degrade HW performance though. And assuming your server is not directly connected to your DAC, otherwise HW matters.
That Faraday cage sounds pretty enticing. Also a dedicated line from the power plant.
*Edit: in my case, just rebooting the (non-dedicated) PC before starting the music server SW gave me almost all the improvement I was going to get. I do not start any processes intentionally after Win startup besides anti-virus stuff.
Rebooting in a "safe" mode with minimal regular stuff running didn't make any diff that I could tell, it was slightly more awkward to get everything running for the server SW, and I deemed it not worth it though it is theoretically preferable.
Edits: 06/23/16
Thanks, that's what I pulled from the talk.Re the PSs: why would using a "great" PS for this appliance make any diff if it's not directly connected to the audio gear? I sure couldn't give a crap what my PC servers use now, to me the whole point of using the network from the very beginning was to isolate the PC from the music.
If anything, it would be the PS for the last network device connected to the music device I'd want to make nice with, in my case a switch (the only "computer" gear in the room, besides the pad). And even that I can't be hugely bothered with really, except to make sure it doesn't put out a lot of RF, nor noise back into the line.
Edits: 06/20/16
The whole power supply thing for the PC is debatable and like anything in engineering it is a game of compromises and where to invest in order to get the best bang for the buck. Notice that I didn't say the power supply isn't important. But if I had limited funds, I would choose carefully where to invest those funds. I wouldn't put a huge chunk of it in the PC power supply.
That's the way I took what you said.I am *slightly* anal about power, where I think it counts. e.g. I make sure my audio gear is on a different AC phase than my "random" appliances, like fridges/freezers/furnace. And that my server computer (the only one on when listening) is on that same phase, with the audio gear being on the "other" phase. Likewise the plasma goes on the phase that sucks during HT use.
I am screwed now, during A/C season here, when everything sucks phase-wise, but it would be too uncomfortable to listen otherwise.
Edits: 06/20/16
Windows 10 can be stripped down by anybody who roughly knows what they are doing, and without the limitations arbitrarily impose by this provider. Other music servers at least offer nice custom hardware; here you get noting but a cheap PC with a little OS tweaking
Free Window tweaking advices is available (for example) from Black Viper, see link below.
( Fidelizer ) is another, audio-specific option.
I love the music of Dmitri Shostakovich ...
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