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42.2.6.58
and I think I've seen/heard it all....
While doing my regular check on my NAS (a QNAP 469L), I found that it's CPU temp is a wee bit higher than I would like, so I decided to prop it up a little with some cheap metal feet with foam inserts in order to give it a little more breathing space. FYI, the NAS is connected to a Buffalo giga switch which is connected to an SOTM SMS-100 and a TP-Link router. The NAS's location is where it had been all along, before and after the footers, and nothing else had been touched
To my surprise, the sound changed a little after I put in the feet. A tiny bit lighter and not as energetic. Not something that I like. So I took the feet back out and the sound seems to be back. I'm not trying to discuss the merits or not of these feet. What I'm getting at is that this should not be happening at all. Digital, packet based data, being so far away in the audio chain, it should not reasonably have experienced any change at all, even in the eyes of this audiophile (as gullible as we audiophiles are).
Other than suggesting that I'm losing my sanity (which has a certain probability), any speculation of what might have happened?
Cheers.
Follow Ups:
You can also try to set TP-Link's WiFi to use low power mode and let us know if you notice the changes.
Hi !
1st i would check if the main problem (CPU T increase) is really solved.
Then i would experiment with feet of other materials.
I have been always fascinated by products like Shun Mook.
You can find a cheaper and working diy solution with a little of patience.
Wood, aluminum, hard plastic, even glass and combinations
with rubber against the floor ... many combinations possible.
If the issue is in the bass response you can check the changes very easily with the right music recordings.
Like Bach toccata e fuga ..
Good luck !
Kind regards,
bg
I was going to do the same. But now that the sound and temperature seems fine, I'll hold for little while
Thanks
Hi ! you are welcome !
You can also try some weights above the NAS ... it is a try and listen game.
Good luck !
Kind regards,
bg
Already doing that. Got a little box of crystals and two marble sticks on it.
Cheers
Thanks,everyone, for your interesting feedback.
To give you guys a better picture of the situation, here's how the system is configured:
The nas sits on the floor at a small space behind a TV cabinet and is about 5 feet away from the audio system. It sits on (from ground up) rubber pucks, wood blocks, acrylic board, round pieces of fo.q vibration damping sheet. (This was done not for tweaking but for mitigation of possible damage when I use my surround system with subwoofer). The nas contains 4 WD 3TB red drives and is powered from the power bar of the surround system (not the main audio system). Connection is like this: 1M Elecom cat7 to a wall mounted Elecom switch (with LPS), then 2M Elecom cat7 to acoustic revive lan isolator to sotm SMS-100(with LPS). Then an acoustic revive Usb cable to ifi iusb isolator to ifi Gemini split Usb cable to ifi ipurifier to ifi ilink converter to Acrolink coaxial into the coaxial input of an esoteric k03. The rest of the system is accuphase c2400 and A60 and Wilson Sophia 2. Everything from the sotm onward in the audio system is powered together with an isotek Orion conditioner separate from the surround system. The audio system is never run concurrently with the surround system.
As you can see, it is really really remote, hence my surprise.
Since we now know that the NAS is in the room with your system, I am wondering whether the influence of the repositioning is completely acoustic rather than any other esoteric means. It is possible that low levels of acoustic noise generated by the NAS fans or drives might be different or combine differently with the music you are listening to in the room as a result of repositioning it. It might be a subtle difference not obviously audible, and you did say you heard only a small difference. Raising the NAS by a few inches might make its radiated acoustic noise in the room differ as it combines with the music and radiates into the room, including reflections.
My suggestion: move the NAS outside the room, at least temporarily and see if the difference persists, preferably blind, with someone else randomly raising it or lowering it. I do not foresee an issue with any competent, longer Ethernet cable run outside the room.
Personally, I do not like NAS's or computers with fans or non-SS drives in the room at all for reasons of acoustic noise. I understand that we can get used to it, and we might come to even prefer the sound in a way we use a system habitually.
Fair enough, but the extra elevation is just an extra 1cm and the thing is near the floor behind a rather massive 5 feet wide enclosed MDF TV cabinet with a 55" TV sitting on it. If that small diff was the cause, I must say I'm mighty impressed by my hearing.The NAS is quite quiet BTW (not totally so if you go close to it of course, but I would probably say the noise level is much like a laptop sitting idle)
Cheers.
Edits: 05/25/16
Ok, although I do not see how a 1cm addition to height did much to improve the cooling, which is where this all started.
But, yeah, as Tony and I both suggested, I would move the NAS out of the room. It might reveal whether this height and footing change still causes a difference. If it still does, you can cross the NAS in the room off the list and focus elsewhere. Either way, it will provide useful information to you as part of an open-minded inquiry.
you won't hear low frequency sound or vibration, but they may well be there, especially if you have floor boards that 'amplify' such effects.
Tony Lauck's suggestion of moving the NAS out is a sound first step.
There is no point in theorising too much but if want to find out the cause, systematic action is required.
Agreed. Those of us replying in this thread were forced to theorize because we didn't have hands on access to the problem. It seems the time for action has come. Move the NAS out of the room.For years I had my entire system out of the room, except for the speakers and speaker wires. The equipment rack was on a floor below, with rack on a concrete slab. Sonically, this worked well, but at times it was aerobically challenging.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Edits: 05/26/16
Thanks for the suggestion.
Now that the Nas is back to how it was situated before it all began, the same fine sound is back and temperature seems alright, I guess I'll leave it for now and enjoy the music.
I would not worry about the CPU temperature in any event. I would worry about the disk drive temperature(s) however, because they affect the lifetime of the data, and while I would hope that the RAID configuration would save the data in the event of a drive failure, I would definitely not count on it.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Thanks.
CPU temp is now at mid to high 40 degrees celsius, was at about 60 (which is still not dangerously high) at its "bad" times.
HDD temp had been at high 30s all along and is rather stable.
So the issue had nothing to do with microphonics, which is what most folks would expect with a NAS. Good to know you have your nice sound back.
Another statement aimed at self justification for making absurd and incorrect posts on microphonics.
.
You have a complicated setup. If you are trying to understand what is going wrong, then I suggest you strip things down to the minimum needed to play music and add components back in one at a time. (This is called a "start small" diagnostic strategy.) Otherwise there are too many variables.
However, if it were my system, before doing any of this I would remove the NAS from the room. These machines generally have good air circulation to keep lots of disks cool and hence there is a lot of acoustic and electrical noise. I kept mine in the closet, but then I realized that I could still hear noise from it and that playback from the NAS did not sound as good as playback from a RAM disk in my PC. So I keep the NAS powered down except when I actually need it. (Mostly at night for backups.)
But it wouldn't surprise me that moving something that is even powered down might not change the sound in a room. Or even rerouting cables with no other change.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
here's how the system is configured:
If I'm reading your note correctly, your setup is:
NAS > switch > [LAN isolator] > sotm NAA > [USB isolator] > DAC.
The NAS and switch are on an untreated mains supply, the sotm and the DAC have basic filtering. The digital bits (NAS, switch) are sited fairly close to the audio bits and, presumably, powered from the same circuit.
My first guess (no more) would be that noise is getting through your mains filter - it's certainly worth doing a few quick checks. Why that should vary the sound when you stick footers under the NAS is anybody's guess but no-one who has grappled with issues like these pretends there's anything rational about them.
Try e.g. connecting the NAS and switch via your conditioner. If you can beg, borrow or DIY another filter, try it on the digital side, analogue as was. Check that the surround system is unplugged when testing the audio, not just on "standby". Try siting the NAS and switch as far away as practicable from the sotm adapter (different room?) and running a stock cable between the two. Try siting the LAN isolator at one end of that cable and then the other. And so on.
You have good kit - I'd be confident it will respond to the effort involved in improving your mains supply.
HTH
D
I think your assessment is fair. The NAS and switch are just plugged into a belkin "filter", and the main rig into Isotek. Power cables are decent (Furutech Nanoflux, Esoteric 6N, Acoustic Revive 18000 with Oyaide M1/F1). I can probably do a little better with the power conditioner, but the Isotek is OK and I don't have the extra room and money to do much better than that for now. I think I generally don't have much complaint about the sound of the system, but was just a little curious as to why those footers on an NAS relatively far away electrically and physically had imposed such a change, if any change at all.
Thanks
Isotek would not agree; they say it is 'advanced'. Have a look at the web site.
Have a look at the web site.
I'd skimmed a write-up on a UK distributor's web site that was obviously lifted from mfgr's spiel. I haven't a clue what "coupled with sophisticated gating principles and proprietary 'Polaris-X' technology" means except "awfully jolly damn good indeed".
Seriously, I'm not for a moment suggesting it isn't well engineered but you of all people would surely agree that filtering can be a bit of a hit-and-miss affair and that no filter is a complete answer. Necessary but not sufficient and all that.
The OP worried if he was insane. OK, he's come to the right place but I don't think so - I'd say he was perceptive. Having been on a similar path myself, I tried to suggest a few simple tests to see if he can't tie things down a bit. If others can come up with better ones, that would be useful.
I agree and as you said, I am sceptical about 'mains fiters'. They do affect SQ though. But as I found out recently, so does the R and L of mains fuses!
But as I found out recently, so does the R and L of mains fuses!
Not that it helps the OP any and somewhat to my chagrin, I too recently got good results from fitting an "after-market" fuse and fancy mains plug/socket. And that was on a system already fitted with a high-end pro-audio filter, Kostapacket Konditioners and Jon Risch-style isolators.
(Because UK domestic mains systems uses ring circuits and fused plug tops, it's generally safe to have one fuse only on an audio system provided it's wired right. NB that it's almost certainly NOT safe on non-UK systems and that I always fit ELCBs. One never knows, one doesn't.)
D
The price being asked for 'audio' fuses in eBay is crazy. But Partsconnxion are closing out HiFiTuning fuses at $10, which is affordable.
Why is 5 ft remote? Your hdds and NAS fan must generate a fair amount of noise and vibration at this close distance.I note that you have a complex system setup with many variables.
Edits: 05/24/16
eduardoo.
Thanks for the excellent detail on your system.
I admit I am puzzled about one thing.
Why do you use a network set up with a NAS when you have the moving parts 5 feet away from the audio system?
Why not just a server that can accept directly attached storage? Or even a computer?
I fail to understand why you need a NAS.
Few reasons:
1. Need raid for massive storage (Now it's 9T, can support more)
2. It wasn't there originally (The renderer was connected via Wifi when the NAS was in another room before) and it used to support a Squeezebox ecosystem which it still does(Sotm running squeezelite)
3. It also serves as a DLNA server for video and stuff
4. 24/7 operation and easy support for remote control
I know that some/all of this can still be available with something like an Aurender or a PC, but I already have what I have and it works well enough as it is.
Thanks.
Got it.
A more complete picture I see...a high capacity central library.
Thanks again.
It is perhaps not generally appreciated that many components in electronics are microphonic and pizoelectric. Components in your NAS use cheap capacitors and other chips that can be rather prone to such effects, as well as temperature variations. This is why high quality audio electronics are much more expensive than the convent garden computer system.
It may be that your attempt to lower operating temperature also had an effect.
If the NAS is in a room far from the player & listening room (maybe in the basement as an example), will tapping lightly on the NAS create "microphonic effects" detectable in the listening room? It's a simple question with a YES or NO answer since you seem to be concerned with microphonics.
It was in specific response to the immediately preceding question from Abe Collins. My setup is as described above and casual (not blind or statistically valid) perturbations of the NAS had no audible effect.I have no need to pursue it further but my observation is relevant. (The OPs setup is highly complex and different from mine, so I was not responding to him or to you.)
Edits: 05/25/16
or Fawl or FAULE or and other kind.
Ya just got caught up in the everlasting Abe vs. fmak thing. What one says the other contradicts, as a matter of principal.
But in fairness to you, fmak did mention "components in electronics are microphonic and pizoelectric." and that certainly invites a bit of tapping if not banging on ones NAS drive.
My question below is more to the point of differences in makes and models of NAS drive. Certainly if just changing the position of a NAS drive makes a difference in SQ, wouldn't one there be a larger difference in make and/or model?
That is why I asked the question. You are not confused. You get it.
Scenario: The NAS is in a separate room where the NAS cannot be heard in the listening room or the light tapping on the NAS cannot be heard in the listening room.... or the NAS fan cannot be heard in the listening room.
So lets say someone is tapping lightly on the NAS. Do you hear the effects of this tapping in the listening room through the audio system? I hope not! If you do, you're imagining things.
Digital solid-state devices are generally not microphonic. Some capacitor types can be ever so slightly microphonic but any capacitors or piezo electric crystal devices used in a NAS are not sensitive enough to vibration to effect the proper workings of the NAS. Same for a computer. If the capacitors or any other component were that sensitive to vibration the NAS or computer would simply not function right. The NAS is not an audio device. It has no audio circuitry. Tap on it all you want. A NAS is not microphonic in any way. I suppose if you hammered on it and it broke, you'll hear the music stop in the listening room. Does that mean the NAS is microphonic? ;-)
Mechanical vibration from the NAS fans may affect other nearby components through vibration/acoustical coupling. But the vibration from the fan is not CAUSED by microphonics. It is caused by the fan rotating.
Some are getting "microphonics" confused with "vibrations". Microphonics can be CAUSED by vibrations but vibrations are not caused by microphonics.
A vacuum tube is said to be microphonic if the effects of EXTERNAL vibrations picked up by the tube can be heard at the audio output. Tapping lightly on the tube or vibrations from the music itself acting on the tube can cause "microphonics" and audible distortions. Similar for turntables.
Computer music servers, NAS devices, network streamers, are not microphonic. But audiophiles will put them on isolation feet and whatnot anyway. This -may- help minimize vibration from a fan or spinning disk from coupling vibrations in an audio rack to other nearby audio components. But this has nothing to do with the device itself being microphonic.
Ho, reinvention of truth!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microphonics
Yes, we can all read wikipedia.
Is a NAS microphonic? Yes or No? What is the truth?
You failed to answer my previous related question with a Yes or No choice. Do you always dance around the issues?
It is the fact that you posted incorrect and wrong information behind loaded questions, instead of contributing to a discussion by learning about the subject first.I am a highly qualified professional engineer. What are you?
Edits: 05/26/16
...and trying to sidetrack the conversation.So you have no answer to a simple Yes/No question or you refuse to answer because the CORRECT answer contradicts your response to the OP about his NAS.
I'm at a loss to understand why you rambled on about microphonics as related to the OP's NAS if you know that a NAS cannot be microphonic.
Keep back peddling but I think the hole you dug for yourself will just get deeper.
Edits: 05/26/16
Think what you like. I don't answer wrongful questions posted behind incorrect assertions.
It is the WHOLe audio chain and the multiple acoustics and vibration effects that may be at play, you stupid (to use Bill Clinton's words).
I am going to ignore your posts.
...that you do not want to indict yourself by answering a simple Yes/No question to you (twice now!).
Edits: 05/27/16
No, this is not it's about.I see that you do not understand what has been said in the context of acoustic and vibration effects and nodes.
Question:- how is anyone able to discern SQ changes by tapping on a device and therefore making a noise at the same time? Even if there are two persons, action and perception cannot be accurately synchronised. The only way this can be done is through high quality microphone measurements. Here, one can definitely see such effects.
Since you do not often comprehend what has been said in the technical sense, I would suggest that you reduce on the number of noisy posts that you make in haste that do not contribute to a discussion.
Edits: 05/25/16
He understood perfectly.
Since you do not often comprehend what has been said in the technical sense, I would suggest that you reduce on the number of noisy posts that you make in haste that do not contribute to a discussion.
Still trying to become a moderator, I see.
to a question that has no relevance to what I posted and to the underlying discussion help the poster?
.
You didn't say where the NAS is located and how it is powered. Is it located in your listening room? Is it powered on the same circuit as any of your other audio equipment?
There are some other experiments you may be able to make. You might try playing files from some other machine than the NAS. Then power the NAS up and down and see if this makes any difference. And try using the NAS to transfer files to another computer through the switch while listening to music (not from the NAS). See if this makes any difference.
If the NAS is in the listening room, it is even possible that moving it around may affect room acoustics, whether or not the NAS is powered. Or it could be something really stupid, just that you aren't sitting in the exact same spot while listening to different configurations. (Not to accuse you of being stupid, I'm just brainstorming and I've done many stupid things to confuse myself on occasion.)
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
I can understand your surprise. Even though it seems to be outside of the signal path, perhaps the CPU, power supply, and vibration due to the whisper fan of the QNAP 469L is just as sensitive to vibration control footers as a computer CPU and power supply for audio purposes. You might consider the use of potentially better sounding vibration control footers for the application.
Acousti Products AcoustiFeet self-adhesive soft silicone feet are effective vibration absorbers for computers, computer peripherals, and various audio components. The product is an inexpensive option that might be worth a try for your particular application.
See link:
I will be honest, to me the notion of your NAS sounding different depending on location is absurd.
It tells me your NAS is either broken, or is an example of a hugely flawed design. Just my take.
I have a QNAP 251+ and noticed a significant improvement isolating with Fiber. Swapping back & forth between Fiber and RJ45 is incredibly easy for me.
You may also want to try an EMO EN-30 Ethernet isolater, $190 on Amazon.
Not too crazy in price, and easily sold as are in demand. Also, - compared to some more of the expensive RJ45 Ethernet cables, a fiber set-up can be very reasonably priced.
Cheers,
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
FYI, the EMO EN-30, and other devices like it are really intended to be placed RIGHT BEFORE the source component (streamer) That is benefit the greatest benefit is going to be.
That being said, one at the NAS may be an interesting addition, but I would not spend the money just to place it there, with no similar device upstream. Just my take.
Yeah....
Just wanted to toss it out there as another possibility to see if it could be more of a network isolation thing, (ethernet cabling), and less of a NAS thing specifically...
Interestingly, - I have read where some folks were noticing differences when they replaced their NAS SMPS with an LPS: and not liking the LPS.
Cheers,
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Good thinking...def. a point to consider
But I have to say, if one can REALLY hear environmental changes in the NAS at their HiFi there is a major problem with the unit or the set up.
The whole premise of Ethernet audio is galvanic isolation and not having those issues in the listening room.
I guess it's a surprise IF we have all come to the conclusion that there is NO AUDIBLE DIFFERENCE between makes, models and technology (SSD vs. spinning rust) NAS drives.
Have we?
Reading through the AA archives shows me that those who have tested various types of components for EMI leakage have discovered that different types of components leak EMI differently - in different amounts AND/OR IN DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS...
Could it be that relatively minute changes in the positioning of components can affect EMI interactions between one or more components in an audible way?
Your QNAP 469L NAS houses up to 4 disks and two fans. Are you using 3.5" or 2.5" spinning disks? Where is the NAS physically located relative to your other audio gear?
I'm losing my sanity . . .
Can't comment on that nor meaningfully on the SQ change except to say that, if you hear it and continue to hear it on reversing and repeating the foot swap, it's probably real even if you are an itzy bit insane.
Surely the interesting thing is that you have (almost certainly) detected a change? Whether the sound is more or less accurate as a result of that change is inevitably less readily apparent. You don't say how mechanically far away from the analogue side of things the NAS is - could there perhaps be a vibration (reduction in) issue?
If OTOH the NAS is too far away from the rest of the setup to give bad vibes and you can eliminate things like bad connections, I've no idea. I believe you can get help . . . my partner thinks I should.
HTH
D
Vibration and microphonics for one. Modification of vibration and noise patterns form the NAS fan, if there is one, for another.
These things may seem improbable, but they are there and do affect SQ.
For me, I have no fans an pay attention to microphonics and vibrational modes.
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