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In Reply to: RE: So, it posted by Kal Rubinson on May 16, 2016 at 08:56:18
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Follow Ups:
The output of the feeder supply never affects the output of the LPS-1 as it is completely isolated. However, they are still concerned with any noise inherent in the "feeder supply" getting back into the AC mains.In some designs that use ultracaps, the charger is completely removed from the AC mains during operation so there is no concern with inherent charger ("feeder supply") noise getting back into the mains during operation. But again, these products (Blue Circle preamp for example) don't use complex bank switching and they charge the ultracaps only when the preamp is not in operation.
The comments below tell me that the LPS-1 "feeder supply" (charger/energizer) is always connected to the AC mains.... which makes sense for automated charging and bank switching so there is still concern for any noise generated by the "feeder supply" itself getting back into the AC mains.
We are working on an unusual hybrid feeder supply, which has a transformer and diodes but uses a high quality switching regulator. The result is supply that has extremely low noise back into the mains, less than most linears, but still has some noise on the output DC, but that doesn't matter because the LPS-1 could care less about the quality of the DC feeding it.
The MOST important thing to understand in any of these discussions about choice of "energizing" supply, is that there is NOTHING about the quality of it that can have ANY effect whatsoever on the quality of the OUTPUT from the UltraCap LPS-1.
Edits: 05/16/16
From Alex,
""that the output from our linear power supply was 100% isolated from whatever circuits would be charging these battery/capacitor-like ultracapacitors, so that nothing from the wall is even remotely connected. That requires two strings of ultracaps, with circuitry silently switching between them.""
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
The objective is to "clean" the output of the "feeder". Or said another way, to render the feeder quality unimportant.
Yes.
Abe has a good point in that while using a crappy switcher may not effect the output going to the device, it may spew its noise back into the AC which must be dealt with for other components.
Think of the feeder as just a charger, to charge the ultracaps. Once bank A is charged, the device is powered strictly from the bank A ultracaps which are now automatically disconnected from the charger. So the "cleanliness" of the LPS-1 output is not at all dependent on the "cleanliness" of the charger/feeder at the LPS-1 input .But.... that charger/feeder is always connected to the AC mains and -could be- putting noise back into the AC mains. The charger/feeder is used to alternate it's charge between bank A and bank B. When bank A is depleted, bank B is brought online at which time bank A is put on charge. And the LPS-1 automatically alternates between bank A and B with the aid of the feeder/charger keeping the banks charged.
Lager ultracaps could be used for a much simpler single bank design and complete electrical removal of the charger/feeder during operation. Blue Circle does it this way on their BC-109 linestage with a much larger bank of ultracaps - at a much higher cost - and the penalty of not being able to take advantage of the ultracaps while they are charging. But it is very elegantly simple compared to dual banks of ultracaps, FPGA controller & software, 10 optocouplers, AD converters, etc.
Edits: 05/16/16
Almost like an automated batter charging system.
While its not as convenient, I purchased a 5V 2A Jockery battery (really a phone charger) to power my Squeezebox Touch player.
While it is superior to the crappy original wall wart, I don't find any improvement using it over the Welborne Labs 3A linear supply I use most often.
Hi and sorry to jump in
When you say" I purchased a 5V 2A Jockery battery (really a phone charger) to power my Squeezebox Touch player. "
do you mean this product here ?
http://www.amazon.com/Jackery-Bar-External-Battery-Charger/dp/B00AANMVNQ
" While it is superior to the crappy original wall wart, I don't find any improvement using it over the Welborne Labs 3A linear supply I use most often "
do you mean that are on a par ? because this says a lot about the high quality of the charger. The Welborne Labs 3A linear supply is indeed a very good one.
Thanks a lot.
Kind regards,
bg
Edits: 05/17/16 05/17/16 05/17/16
No problemo!
do you mean this product here ?
No, I have the "Giant" with twice the current capability. Here's a link . I had to cobble a power cord together.
do you mean that are on a par ? because this says a lot about the high quality of the charger.
Yes. The $25 battery is equivalent in performance to the $250 linear - albeit not as convenient given the frequent need to recharge.
Just a quick comment on those USB batteries. Most of them use one or more 3.2 - 3.7V Lithium Ion batteries within but require a boost converter chip (a switching DC-DC converter) to achieve their 5V output. So any noise associated with that switching frequency could be riding on your USB battery 5V output. But.... it IS easier to capacitor filter higher frequencies vs 60Hz line freq.You do not get a clean output directly off the Li battery itself.
Functional Diagram of the TI USB boost converter part as an example:
Edits: 05/17/16
Doesn't matter to me in that the linear works very well.
Powering the Touch with a battery was an experiment and the unit works fine for its intended purpose.
Absolutely, what you hear is what counts most.
Hi ! thanks for the very kind and helpful reply.
Yes ! the questions were two ... sorry." No problemo! No, I have the "Giant" with twice the current capability. Here's a link. I had to cobble a power cord together.
Yes. The $25 battery is equivalent in performance to the $250 linear - albeit not as convenient given the frequent need to recharge "very very helpful and interesting. I will buy one to try out.
Yes. You are right about the recharge cycle being a pain.
I am searching a power solution for a usb to spdif converter usb powered (i do not know the mA required) i have at hand.
Maybe i have to buy a usb multimeter and check first the consumption.
IMHE the quality of the power supply matters a lot.
Thanks a lot again.
Kind regards,
bg
Edits: 05/17/16 05/17/16 05/17/16
IMHE the quality of the power supply matters a lot.
Agreed. I find a big difference using the linear or the battery vs the crappy switcher. Top end is clearer with less false brightness and noise.
To be honest i am using now a Samsung charger with a cheap dc filter i found on ebay. I have to buy something serious because the sound is nice.
But i would like to measure first the power consumption of these units.
I do not have specifications. I have seen usb voltmeters on ebay.
Batteries are also very nice but as you say not very handy,
Thanks a lot again.
Kind regards,
bg
That has sort of been my experience with batteries/DACs. Though I could live with the sonics, especially with 'phones, I didn't think the hassle was worth it. Different battery chemistries sound different too...as though I need any more audio snakes to wrestle...
In "better days", Ron was very helpful to me on PS details. His linear supplies stand up quite well still. Simple, but he hits all the nails squarely, for most apps where you need a bit of quiet juice.
A "feeder" charger, for the ultra-caps in the F1, (second, DC input) power supply.
Since it's isolated, & generates a new FPGA controlled DC. The device that charges the CAPs, could be a battery too..
So, - it's really being used as a 2 part supply.
I doubt that this is the case here, but with some of the BC amps, the CAPS can be charged overnight, and then the amp played for four of 5 hours without being plugged into the wall.....
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
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